HJ Bayonet

Forums New posts
M

Michael

.
Joined
Dec 20, 2012
Messages
210
Thanks Received
142
Location
Lower Austria / "Niederdonau"
Gentlemen, I would like to ask for your opinion on that piece. Offered in another forum for sale, only these three pics available. I think I saw such a piece already one time but I am not sure if proven wrong or right. So maybe you could help me out here...

You don't have permission to view attachments.
You don't have permission to view attachments.
You don't have permission to view attachments.
 

Attachments

    You don't have permission to view attachments.
Michael said:
The seller offers a give-back guarantee if proved as fake. So I probably will go for it, worst case is to loose the postal charges.
Click to expand...

Could this be a taste of things to come where we enter a collecting world where everything is real unless proven fake and the dealers pass the responsibility for research fully onto their customers whilst still expecting premium prices? I would never buy from a dealer with a guarantee like that. How does he describe this item Michael? What does he think it is?
 
He described it in very few words: HJ bayonet, very rare item. Guaranteed original. I asked him if he really gives a guarantee and he said yes. Totally agree with your opinion that it is a weird thing that buyers should identify a fake. BTW it´s a private sales, no dealer here. Anyway let´s wait for the additional pictures and decide then.
 
janjan said:
You have to prove it as a fake that could be difficult
Click to expand...
& you have to prove that my Hitlerjugend Close Combat Cork Screw is a fake, because until you do, i will say that it is original :pound:
That`s why what you have just said, or what the seller is saying, is completely naff, and just cant work. If everything has to be proven a fake, in order for it to really be a fake, then there are no limits....
With your ever day items like Membership badges, knives, usw.. they are well documented, BUT, when it comes to stupid items, like my Cork Screw, then surely we should be saying that it is a Fake first, and that we would need to prove that it is genuine ▬ BEFORE going along with any old stupid story that any old stupid dealer or seller or author is telling us? That`s the way i view this "you have to prove it`s a fake" BS.. Many scoundrels have turned many a penny using this trick!
 
All true what you are saying. Let´s turn it the other way round. Does anybody have any prove for the existence of these pieces? I know, that there have been bayonets in use by the "Wachgefolgschaft Baldur v. Schirach" which sometimes turn up with a blade etching, but these can be identified as fakes very easy.
 
Ah, sorry Michael. I assumed that it was a dealer because HJ collectors usually know more about the items in their collections. Well, HJ collectors will be aware of the non-standard long knives and the E Packs with the engraved hilts and how they are described in collector books. In my experience these knives always come with a "vet bring back" or "motel buy" story and are therefore quite rightly controversial. I have made the point in the past that a knife reputedly worn around 1933 as an honour knife is rather unlikely to have been hanging from the belt of a HJ member in 1944/5 just waiting to be pilfered by a passing allied soldier. Anyway, it will be interesting to hear what he says about the item so please keep us posted.
 
No problem Garry :)

There will always be some good stories to sell such items.

Anyway, this is what I just found on another webpage:

The Hitlerjugend did wear an authorized Seitengewehr which was simply a standard KS 98 which had an enameled HJ diamond inset into the obverse grip. The bayonet was officially termed Seitenwaffe der Wachgefolgschaft. The bayonet first appeared in the 1943 edition of the yearly Party organization book, "Organisationsbuch der NSDAP," but there is no mention of the duties of the Wachgefolgschaft. As its name implies, the group was a security or guard unit of the HJ. The HJ was, by then, supplying older personnel to the military to serve as flakhelpers, laborers, air raid helpers, etc. By the end of the war HJ members were under arms and serving in self defense units as the front closed in upon their towns and cities.

HI Seitenwaffe hilt. This Hitler Youth Seitengewehr has an unmarked blade with a wide fuller.
It is a late bayonet with a white metal hilt that has a plated finish which is proper for these bayonets. The enamel HJ insignia is properly inset into the black plastic grip as it should be.
The reverse of an HJ grip insignia with two pins is shown to illustrate the proper method of attachment.

The HJ Wachgefolgschaft Seitengewehr was a late model KS 98 which had the enameled HJ diamond inset into the obverse black checkered plastic grips of the bayonet in exactly the same manner as on the HJ-Fahrtenmesser. The only known official illustration of the bayonet shows it with a 20cm blade, but examples with 25cm blades have been observed. As with all bayonets with grip insignia, the insignia should be properly mounted to the grip with pins. In this instance, the insignia should be inset into the grip, just as on the HJ knife. Reproductions of this rare bayonet have been made for many years.

Original examples of the bayonet have late white metal hilts which have been nickel-plated. Since the bayonet was not authorized until 1943, early steel-hilted examples should be viewed with suspicion. Examples which evidence removed rivets or surface-mounted insignia should also arouse suspicion. The blades on observed original examples all have wide fullers (on both 20cm and 25cm blades) and no maker markings. The scabbard is black-painted steel, as normally found on all KS 98s. The bayonet was worn in a black leather frog and had a Portepee attached in the old Imperial manner, by threading it through the belt. The Portepee has a black leather strap with three aluminum stripes. The slide is black leather and the stem, crown, and ball are aluminum. The insert of this generic knot is black.

Source: German Militaria Blog

There is also a scan from the page in the book.

You don't have permission to view attachments.
 

Attachments

    You don't have permission to view attachments.
Michael said:
All true what you are saying. Let´s turn it the other way round. Does anybody have any prove for the existence of these pieces? I know, that there have been bayonets in use by the "Wachgefolgschaft Baldur v. Schirach" which sometimes turn up with a blade etching, but these can be identified as fakes very easy.
Click to expand...

Yes, that's right. The Wachgefolgschaft did wear such an item but....whether the item for sale is one of those I couldn't personally say as I have zero experience with them.

Edit: I see that you were quicker with a scan from the OB :)
 
The only thing that makes me think is this part in the text above: "...and no maker markings". The piece shown has this markings as clearly seen on the pictures.

You don't have permission to view attachments.
 

Attachments

    You don't have permission to view attachments.
They don't know Michael. C Gottlieb, for example, only trusts HJ bayonets made by Eickhorn so there you have an instant contradiction of the extract from Mr Wheeler's book. Who is right? Much of the flowery GM blog description there is supposition and is the extraction of a large amount of "information" out of a tiny source. It sounds like a load of concrete facts but I suspect strongly that if the author were pushed to show evidence for what he says, that he wouldn't be able to show sufficient of it to justify the bold and confident tone of the article. I submit that no one alive today has access to information that would enable him to determine that this particular knife or indeed any of the others around today is a Wachgefolgschaft bayonet. There's a challenge for the confident people out there. Prove that it's real.
 
Just received a few new pictures from the bayonet, the seller now claims that the diamond may have been glued in because it is not wiggling. Still not so sure about it... Could it be that the handles have been taken from a HJ knive and put on a regular bayonet?

You don't have permission to view attachments.
You don't have permission to view attachments.
You don't have permission to view attachments.
You don't have permission to view attachments.
 

Attachments

    You don't have permission to view attachments.
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top