Makers of the HJ Master Shot (Meisterschütze) badge in gold

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Wim Vangossum

Wim Vangossum

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Hi everyone,

Stu brought under my attention that there are 3 makers of the HJ-sharpshooter in Gold: M1/63, M1/120 and also M1/102. I believe that I updated my files a few years ago with info here from the HJ forum with the information that only M1/63 and M1/120 made these awards?

In general I have difficulties with the fact that these badges are so often available for sale (like now on WAF). End 1943 a total of 852 badges had been awarded. I wonder how rare it makes such a badge? Rare as an FM- Honor Award that you see once in a year for sale? Or rare as an Otto Garh SS-zivilabzeichen that you may find once in a lifetime with a good amount of luck. I truly believe that from these two last awards much more were bestowed than the Golden HJ Sharpshooter.


Opinions and thoughts please...



Regards, Wim
 
The M1/102 Master Shot (Meisterschütze) shown on WAF yesterday is a dog in my opinion. I would personally always go for either M1/120 or M1/63.

As far as the number of Meisterschütze badges awarded is concerned, this is discussed on the wiki page for the HJ and DJ shooting badges and it is definitely higher than 852. I have copies here of documents for badge 989 which was awarded in Feb 1943 and another Meisterschütze shooting book shows what appears to be the serial number 2303 (shooting book was processed by the RJF and stamped in April 1944). However, and I agree with you, even with that higher figure in mind, would 3 manufacturers have been required to make such a relatively small run of badges?
 
Wim Vangossum said:
Rare as an FM- Honor Award that you see once in a year for sale?
Click to expand...
Wim, over 13`000 FM-organization members qualified for the FM-Ehrennadel. How many actually received it is of course unknown, but it must have been a good few thousand, although, as you say, you only see one for sale per year or so.
I`ve said it before, in-print as well :sad: The small badge world is ruined, with so much crap accepted as genuine, so many fantasy badges accepted as good, so many stories and tales attached to history by thieving dealers. The prices reflect the chaos, with gold shooters available for a few hundred, and as you say, by many makers :lol:
Each to his own, i have yet to see a Gold HJ shooter that i would be prepared to pay real human-money for.
 
So a few thousand badges in the best case scenario. That is still not very much and can't explain the relative easy way to find a Golden Sharpshooter on today's market. Like Jo said the FM honor pin is probably more common. Even if you take in account that after the war maybe many Fordernde Mitglieders would have dumped their 'controversial' badge.

In fact there is only one Golden Sharpshooter badge that I have ever seen and that I really trusted en that was a specimen posted by Ron Weinand about a year ago. It came from a grouping and the gilding looked like real fire gilding (like used on the HJ Führer Sportabzeichen). I asked for better pictures back than but diden't get a response.

For the moment I have two common shooting awards and one FAKE with silver wreath. Once I hope to buy a silver wreath original but I doubt that I will ever find a Golden example.
However, you could never know; after years my dealer found for me a real Otto Gahr and a real FM-honor. Maybe one day, one of his pickers in Germany find a Golden sharpshooter...


Regards, Wim
 
Wim, i have never seen one that i would be happy enough to put cash on table for.
 
I say it is up to those who own one, and believe that it is real to present their evidence as to why. Otherwise it goes down the same road as the HJ badge for foreigners. An unmarked one of those is still unsold after umteen price reductions on the waf eStand, as well as an unmarked one not selling for 900 at a recent auction. Until clear good info is presented on exactly which versions are genuine and why, the prices of these will sink. The market is clearly flooded with these gold and silver shooting horrors, most of which are fake. By simply saying that you have an original yet not showing the reverse or supporting why your badge is genuine, is helping nobody.
These badges would make for a book on their own.
 
Are you addressing that to me? If so, I'm bound to point out your comment in post #5. You state that you have never seen a Meisterschütze that you would put cash on the table for. This implies that you know what a fake looks like and that every badge you have seen displayed aspects of the fakes. I don't see how you have arrived at that conclusion. This would apply equally to Wim V who also seems to have knowledge that is preventing him from buying an example of the Meisterschütze. I don't see the analysis.

I like the M1/63s because I have seen one in a set obtained from the boy/man who won them. The M1/63 I had displayed the same wear pattern (finish mostly gone on obverse, still intact on reverse. I explained that in post #6. However, that is not to say that there are not authentic M1/102 and M1/120 badges out there. I don't know about that as I have zero experience with badges with those MM.

The analogy of the distinguished foreigner is not a good one by the way. Primary literature and period photographs allow us to know much, much more about the HJ/DJ shooting badges than they have ever allowed for the DF.
 
No, to the Ron guy who supposedly has an original but wont show images.
 
Okay, my apologies. That wasn't clear in your post. I'd just got rid of some Jehovas when I read it so I'll put it down to an afterglow of suspicion :)
 
Wim kindly sent me two images of Rons badge last night, but only obverse images and very small & poor as well, so they are of no use.
Zeugen Jehovas? Lucky you! My last run-in with them was in 1999. Where we live now though, it seems as if they "got the message" first time around. Dont usually swear at old ladies, but made an exception that time.
 
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PETER at the guild just showed me a M1/102 which I did not like , see pics

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Paul, i`d rather have the Zeugen Jehovas at my door than i would have that.
 
Is there any way to really tell if it is fake or not. Especially the M1/102 badges?

This is the badge that i picked up recently.


Some better photos as well as a negative from the back.

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Hi,

We've had a couple of discussions on how these badges were finished i.e. how the gold colour was applied and these were inconclusive but I think that people would expect the reverse of the Meisterschütze badges to have the gold finish also. Your badge and the one further up the thread, both 102s, only have what appears to be a gold wash on the obverse. The suspicion would be that they are actually the lower level Scharfschütze badges which have been "pimped" to make them more lucrative. The M1/63 and M1/120 versions of the Meisterschütze badge are preferred.

I will try to find the thread but I remember discussion surrounding the M1/102 mark with the clipped "1" like yours. It isn't fully formed and this was pointed out as a marker for modern copies of this badge.

Edit: just noticed that Wim V posted a pic on another forum which was posted in the thread I remembered:

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Good

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Copy




...and here's an M1/102 Meisterschütze with a clear MM but with the same, fairly weak gold colour. On balance I would still not go with a 102.
 

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