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  1. #21

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    Well its one thing to look at extremely magnified pictures and say its of bad quality but when I look at mine in hand it don't come of as of bad or inferior quality.

    So with that said I dont think any quality controll would have pulled the plug on this badge.
    Here it is with the items I got from the seller when zoomed out it looks perfectly fine IMO

    Thanks

    Bjorn

    Lot15.jpg

  2. #22
    With respect Bjorn, I have seen a number of these badges that looked shoddy in hand so you don't always need to get up close with them. If you are happy that's perfectly okay but I think that there are many legitimate reasons for thinking that these badges are not the genuine article. The 'S', the quality, the construction, the time-frame, the numbering, the fact that hundreds of thousands of the silver level were made after yours and to a higher level of quality but only a few of your type survive. And then of course there is the analysis by Metallwarenfabrik that I think needs to be taken seriously. As I say though, it can't yet be stated conclusively that the 'S' badges are bogus but my opinion is that the weight of evidence certainly seems to suggest that they might be. If you are happy with the badge that's good but I'm sure that you will accommodate those who aren't so sure.

  3. #23

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    No problem at all, I respect all your opinions I have no problem discussing this badge and as a matter of fact I am also leaning in the direction of this being a reproduction due to the bad quality.

    Its just strange that it appeared in this veteran lot, that basically is the only reason that my initial thoughts and I am still not totally convinced that it without a doubt is a reproduction.

    Bjorn

  4. #24
    That's right Bjorn. All we can do as collectors is to collate the available information and always be on the lookout for new information to explain what we see and to consolidate and confirm what we know to be true. We see it too often on forums where people say 'good badge', 'bad badge' but rarely do they qualify what they say. Totally unhelpful and it's only by getting stuck into a discussion that we can learn from each other. That's why I like niche forums like ours. On the bigger forums people are more anonymous and good discussions often get pushed down the listing too quickly.

  5. #25

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    This Thread is brilliant.

    Thanks all for your input.

    As we say in Spain, it is not gold all that shine. Sometimes we trust firm where the pieces come from, but may be even the origin, the source what is really wrong.

    We had here (and in the other Forum) a couple of HJ Veterans. We learnt a lot about them and we say many of the pieces from them. Everyone would say, that, ok as those pieces come from Veterans, they should be all original and period pieces, right?

    But no, I remember that both of the Veterans had fakes that they just got well after May 1945. In fact, there is a Thread of an HJ veteran here who bought an HJ Knife (as his was lost) and it resulted in a fake knife. Other veteran had also a "blue" HJ Membership Badge.

    If they give those items to a third person (maybe not a collector at all), what would they think? that they are originals. Right?

    These are a couple of silly examples. But I find them good to have doubts about the real origin of the pieces.

    The results given here are not 100% decisive. Ok, that is correct, but they show up many "more than orange" flags that make us thinking a little bit more serious about the originality of this piece. And sometimes, the origin, the source where we bought the knife, is not so consistent at all.

    Best Regards

    Antonio

  6. #26

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    This has been nice! I too have one of the "S" badges and I'm not certain of its authenticity or non-authenticity, but I have enjoyed the discussion without making it personal. Thanks to all and to Garry.
    Last edited by Mijke; 26th September 2012 at 09:17 PM.

  7. #27
    Another, up for sale for £75.-

    That "S" has been hand-stamped with some authority. (Possibly done by Olek-the-stamper, the brother of Vlad the impaler.)

    Their two piece construction -with-razor-sharp-barbs-around-the-reverse-even-till-this-day- alone gives them away as not possibly being from the third Reich. (Once again, its not cupal, its not bonded-metal that has been stamped, its two different stamp-outs bonded post creation - an absurb suggestion to consider that any third reich manufacturer would even contemplate this way of creating awards, especially when we know that these makers, whos marks we find on these, did not produce these badges, like this - Nobody did.

    The S is surely to distract from basic logic, and go hand-in-hand with Alice into the Land of what ifs, and possibly could be`s...

    Solid, Genuine, Honest items, are not shrouded in any cloud of mystery, and present themselves as honest and genuine at face value.

    What about the past few threads on fake HJ leistungsabzeichen, badges that i recently bought and gutted? Badges that although are made in 2010, still fool people only 2 years later... Now think about the old fakes, that these supposed veterans have been handing out for the past 5 decades, non bloody stop to all who have an ear for a yarn, or two. Its Marilyn Manson`s "Dope Show", this hobby is, and has been since 1946. We have not had the wool pulled over our eyes, it was there from the first day we all walked into this hobby, most collectors see no need to remove it though.

    ps: even with these minute images, you can see that the face was cast in a cats litter tray.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Jo Rivett; 12th October 2012 at 07:10 AM.

  8. #28

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    A really interesting thread, I sadly missed it until now.
    Garry linked my M1/101 https://www.HJ-research.com/forum/f24...uestions-1389/ in post #7.
    It's right, the reverse side is sharp but the quality of the badge is really fine! I'm a little bid confused and I'm not 100% sure if it's a fake in fact. So I leave it in my collection and wait until some more informations came up - or maybe not. Maybe in some years we laugh about wasting so much original badges, I don't know? Or we laught because some of us were stupid enough for not believing in you! We'll see!

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Hohenlohe View Post
    A really interesting thread, I sadly missed it until now.
    Garry linked my M1/101 https://www.HJ-research.com/forum/f24...uestions-1389/ in post #7.
    It's right, the reverse side is sharp but the quality of the badge is really fine! I'm a little bid confused and I'm not 100% sure if it's a fake in fact. So I leave it in my collection and wait until some more informations came up - or maybe not. Maybe in some years we laugh about wasting so much original badges, I don't know? Or we laugh because some of us were stupid enough for not believing in you! We'll see!
    I was also just reading your post, and although what you wrote is not quite accurate, its close enough to what i mean, namely that the badge is pretending to be stamped from Cupal, (on your thread you referred to the actual layer of sheet messing as being Cupal, and the aluminum part being separate, which is not correct, Cupal is what the name is for the finished product, after the two metals have been bonded by pressure. AFTER this, the cupal sheets and strips are used by makers to stamp out the whole award, and NOT what we are seeing here, which is, as you pointed out in 2009, is a badge-shape being stamped out from a sheet of messing, and an obverse badge shape being cast, or struck from aluminum, then both parts fixed together, and in most cases not properly fixed so that around the back the edges are razor sharp.

    So thinking about it, or leaving it for 20 years wont change the fact that badges and awards were not made like this by any TR maker, where Cupal was used in the later years, it was used correctly, and makers did most certainly not stamp out a positive and negative of the same badge, in separate materials, then attach them in a most clumsy manner, not bother to clean the razor sharp edges, and include an individually hand-stamped (and badly stamped, as well as being stamped all over the arrow, in many different positions) letter S, that is also not found on any other TR badge or award.

    The more we get to understand actual badge and award production, the more we will find Threads like these, in the future, rather embarrassing to read, as it really is a joke badge, starting from its construction, through to the markings and stories, theories and whatever else people may like to support it with.

    Look at the first image in post 17, that says it all really, dont worry that the number has been changed on the bag, its done in fountain pen, which nobody uses anymore.

  10. #30

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    An idea of mine was that the messing / copper was more easy to stamp as the other material. Or it was easy to produce these badges in this way because the manufacturer needed production rescources for other more important badges! The Leistungsabzeichen had to be a cheap mass production for children only. Or is it possible that such badges where produced for a while because of war damage / enemy action or something like that? Maybe absolutely nonsense.
    Last edited by Hohenlohe; 12th October 2012 at 09:20 AM.

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