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  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by John T View Post
    As for the comment about indirect vet estate purchase, that is not amusing .... so I am not BSing when I say that and I really do not like the implication.
    Hi John, it was not intended to be amusing, it is simply the age old extra that gets added to many items. And in most cases, it is nothing more than hogwash. (This has been proven over and over, and can be, proven over and over)

    The question of whether a certain person or dealer is actually lying, or even invented the story, cannot be ascertained in most cases, but in this case i dont believe any such reference was made. Well not by me anyway, it is all about the prefix, who`s sole purpose is to instantly authenticate any old item, just because it comes with the dealers assurance that it`s pedigree dates back to an old man who was supposedly in the war. This is the way too many have been doing business since 1945, and the reason why half the collectors (and dealers) are jelly sandwiches. It is also the reason that reference books are full of crap, because history looses hands down when weighed up with a fuddy-duddy vet story. In this case, it is what you were told, weighed up with some honest debating that casts serious historical doubt on these three zinc honour badges.

    I have no problem holding onto them until we find a dug example
    Unfortunately John, this wont wash either, and is an age old trick to corrode a few suspect items, in order to authenticate the rest. A partially corroded zinc HJ honour badge would prove what? It would prove as much as a vet estate story does, nothing! Or, to those not capable of research, or who want to dismiss historical fact as hearsay, it may well be "definite proof". I guess it depends on what kind of person is discussing the item, and whether they base any "authentication" on facts and history first, or whether the "story" is predominant in their analysis.

    There are a few more threads on this forum about your HJ zinc badges:

    I just went over those old threads again and could not find any jabs, or personal issues at all.
    As far as i am concerned, i have no problem talking about dealers that i know, or have done business with, why shouldn't i? If a fake is listed on some site, and people want to discuss it, why not. I could keep the status quo, sit on the side line like so many do, and say nothing. Why though? so that i could personally profit from possible future transactions with this particular dealer? Well that would be a reason i guess, and i guess many feel this way. Slay old Charlie Snyder, say what you want about Germania International or any other dealer that everyone hates, that is allowed on any forum, and even encouraged - but when it comes to everyone else, dont upset the status quo! Keep your mouth shut!

    I feel like the items were discussed on these few threads here about your zinc HJ badges, and not you. Or have i missed something?

    Surely you see the point though? three (and possibly more) threads about these three badges of yours, discussion, period facts being considered, honest discussion taking place, dates and periods being weighed up, considered, known fakes being shown and the obverse design being compared to yours, people taking the time to add 2 and 2 and come up with a plausible 4. Do you have anything to add? Anything of interest that may help the discussion? or just that they are an indirect vet estate purchase?

  2. #32
    John, the last post from this thread, i made the suggestion that your zinc badges were stamped by the same forger as these fake enameled HJ gold badges. (using the identical obverse die) Would you be able to help out here? by providing good clear, Large image on the obverse of one of your zinc badges to see if this IS the case? Nice big pictures like on this thread! The image below is one of yours that i enlarged, but a much clearer and larger image would help more.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Jo Rivett; 16th February 2013 at 02:39 AM.

  3. #33

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    Jo, I just made a really long reply clicked the link to the photos and my reply was gone darn it,

    Anyway to make it quick the dies are different, I will make a larger picture, the guy was wrong I only had three badges never four, yes they have done that trick with aging fakes in the ground since collecting began, but at the same time they recently found nearly a thousand belt buckles in the ground in Dresden as well as SS and HJ buckles in Poland confirming what they once said were fake SS buckles, as for the jabbing I feel if you are courteous to a person to their face then it should be the same way when not in the presence of that person, I will sign up and post the pictures, John

  4. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by John T View Post
    but at the same time they recently found nearly a thousand belt buckles in the ground in Dresden as well as SS and HJ buckles in Poland confirming what they once said were fake SS buckles,
    John, could you elaborate here? Just because a load of "stuff" is suddenly uncovered - unearthed, in Poland (god, of all places) that automatically makes known (or suspected) fakes real?

    No amount of digging in the ground, or unearthing stuff, will ever compensate for facts and history, no matter how much the owners of said stuff would like to think it does.

    The zinc Knights Cross cores you mentioned are not what i would call a fair example at all, it is effectively the same medal, the black paint disguises if the core was iron, messing or zink. This is mentioned in 1942 by the LDO, saying that "other" materials were found to be being used, and that this is not allowed ! If you want to use the 1944 Gausieger HJ badges as a comparison, then it is only fair that you also have to come up with a very good reason as to why HJ golden honour badges in zinc, would have been made in 1944. This can be done with a period mention, (as is the case with the zinc or other materials knights / iron crosses) or a mention from any producer at any time, showing that they offered both the zinc and messing versions at the same time, or at least showing that there were alternates.

    Until very recently, no HJ zinc badges were known on the market, now all of a sudden we have yours, (others in Germany around the same time) and we have the old 1st pattern HJ badge in painted zinc, and we have the DJ badge in painted zinc too. No story of who these badges were bought by, brought back by, or found by are of any interest, or use, to a debate on these. We first need to consider WHY? Then we need to consider why now? They we need to see what history tells us, and that is exactly what has been going on on these 3-4 threads about the painted zinc golden (and others) badges.

  5. #35
    Yes, 'why?' is indeed the question all must ask themselves when considering the HJ honour badge and these first-pattern membership badges. The late-war production of the first-pattern HJ membership badges and the DJ membership badges in zinc is absolutely illogical when one looks at the evolution of their purpose. Originally straightforward membership badges, they then became outward signs of the wearer's early membership, In 1934 their purpose changed again on the introduction of the HJ honour badge and then finally they were no longer permitted even to be worn on the uniform and instead were worn on civilian clothing by an ever-dwindling number of people. When material shortages forced zinc into use, these badges were already obsolete but manufacturers were producing zinc versions of them alongside zinc versions of the HJ honour badge - the badge that had replaced them back in 1934? Certainly on paper this seems like a non-starter.

    On the matter of ground-dug items: I'm a detectorist and have found a few items from the period but although I know that the stuff I found is authentic, I was on my own when I found it. I can't prove that it came out of the ground so I have understanding for those who are sceptical about including the ground-dug element into any appraisal and I feel that this thinking should also apply to the 'vet estate' scenario. Obtaining items that way is also a subjective experience and should only ever be viewed as a constituent part of any appraisal.

  6. #36
    This whole "Typical late war issue" is a smokescreen used by those with a very limited understanding of how things worked in the final years of the Third Reich regarding manufacture, regarding supply and demand, regarding availability of materials, even basic materials. Just because some badges were made in lesser quality materials, does not mean that after late 1942 everything and everything was still being made, just being made in zinc. This is just not right. When the stocks were depleted, the stuff was gone, and people were supposed to wait until the end of the war to get more. You can read countless announcements to this tune in the late Um and DUZ papers, saying that certain makers could no longer offer certain items, and could only offer them again after the war was "won". Daggers and knives are a good example as well.

    We forget to look at the relevance of the item as well. Why was the NSDAP Party badge and the HJ membership diamond made in zinc? after all, they could have just said that people should just wait until the end of the war to buy a proper one when they could be made again? Well it was compulsory for a NSDAP and HJ member to wear the badge, i guess thats why a limited amount were made, based on the actual, physical numbers of new NSDAP members after 1942 (after new entry into the NSDAP had be closed forever - except to a few like HJ, BDM, Wehrmacht soldiers..) as well as the new HJ members. (as well as being able to supply those who needed new ones, as they were compulsory to buy and wear)

    Dont forget old stock! And what about the Golden Party badges that were awarded as late as 1944? made in gold washed (or gold gilded - that has yet to be proven) messing. So were they actually made in 1944 using messing and enamel? or were they old stock that was made in 1939? We dont know how much old stock was around by the late war years, and we certainly dont know everything that was made. All we can do though, is look at history first, and ask if what we are seeing fits in with it, or sticks out.

    As Garry has pointed out a few times now, you also have to consider the relative "demand" for a certain product at that certain period in time. Or the period in time that the item is supposedly pretending to come from.
    John, i should`nt need to tell you this last point, because you have been around this stuff long enough, but when "new variants" appear on the market, all at the same time, many decades after people have been collecting and writing about this stuff, collecting the variants, and studying them, that alone, especially now, should be enough to raise a huge red flag as well. We know that zinc badges of all kinds are being faked, and have been for a long time. Many of these have even found their way into reference books as well. (Green and blue Female NSKK drivers badges for example)

    If we have announcements informing of the new catch system on the HJ gold badges, as well as announcements on the fact that no number needs to be included onto the reverse, (rather banal things) then there will surely be a trail leading to an announcement of suggestion of - the HJ badge in gold being made in painted zink from 1942 on, and still being actually available at that time..... And surely this could be supported by similar badges like yours, just not brand new, used, heavily used, broken, damaged, chipped, paint missing etc etc, the same as we have with legitimate zinc small badges, like the NSDAP membership badge, the HJ diamond, small shooting badges - the list goes on.

  7. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by John T View Post
    I will sign up and post the pictures, John
    That would be great John, when you find the time. Very often a detailed study will reveal "erstaunliches" !
    For example, the fake Gold badge on the WAF thread, marked M1/120 HERE, mentioned above, and that i am still positive is the same obverse die as used for your three zincs, is also the identical obverse die used for the rather poor fake "S" marked HJ gold badges too.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  8. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by John T View Post
    Anyway to make it quick the dies are different, I will make a larger picture
    Any joy with the pics John?

  9. #39

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    Interesting thread. I hope those pics turn up so that a comparison can be made. It would be a shame to leave this one hanging. I can't see the HJ allowing their honour badge to be made like that and if it can be shown that the fakes and the zincs come from the same die (or not of course)it would be real helpful

  10. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Garry View Post
    Any joy with the pics John?
    Any luck yet?

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