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  1. #11

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    That will be interesting rattler.

    There is no doubt that the knives exist as a knife - it is the strong insistence from the sellers that they were issued, for the DJ and the BDM, last ditch for both organisations etc that needs to be proven. Until this proof materialises, it is still an 'un-attributable' knife. Period.

    Regards

    Russ

  2. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by RussellM View Post
    That will be interesting rattler.

    There is no doubt that the knives exist as a knife - it is the strong insistence from the sellers that they were issued, for the DJ and the BDM, last ditch for both organisations etc that needs to be proven. Until this proof materialises, it is still an 'un-attributable' knife. Period.

    Regards

    Russ
    A dealer should not say that. But for the record I spoke with Tom Wittman about eight months ago about these knives and he told me that they are clearly souvenir pieces sold at events and would never have been issued. And he went on telling me about Col Johnson spending several months in Berlin after the wall fell and found a couple of cases of these knives. And yes those Blue diamond knives are also suspect. I have heard collectors state they were Austrian to Bulgarian to girls HJ. And a guy wanted to sell me one that was supposed to be a chained blue diamond high leader HJ. I think this one beat out all of the other fantasy daggers that I have ever been offered. Before it the chained NSKOV held number one place. Anyway , When I find a lab that will run a carbon 14 test on the bag I will notify the group. Ratler

  3. #13

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    Rattler, Tom Wittman just said it, again - here:

    Quote Originally Posted by Wittmann Militaria on his sales page

    HYK #36443C Late DJ Knife
    This “DJ” Knife is the style that does not have the swastika applied to the scabbard. This probably was is a example of “last ditch” production, an effort by the NSDAP to provided knives to the HJ, which continued to exist to the bitter end of the war. As we now know, the DJ Knife was never a specific piece slated for the DL alone. The so-called “DJ” version we see is simply a cheaper, late issued variant of the standard knife. In other words, the HJ and DJ knives were totally interchangeable with the organizations.

    This example has all aluminum hilt mounts, and they are pristine throughout. The pommel has the silhouette of an eagle's head, and a quillon which rises upward to a teardrop. The grip plates are of black Bakelite or celluloid, having a checkered finish. These plates are retained by aluminum rivets, having dressed heads on the obverse.
    The scabbard is straight throughout, and has pristine, full Mint original black paint. The leather belt loop is in place and complete with a retainer loop and working snap. This leather in in Near Mint condition.
    The single-edged, slab blade is without a ricasso, and is is still bright and Mint throughout. It retains 100% of the original cross-grain, with a needle-like tip at the end. The original brown felt blade buffer in in place , keeping this blade in a Mint state.
    If you are collecting HJ daggers, you certainly need this version of the knife. This is an exceptional example and would fit perfectly into an advanced collection.
    Mint. $795.00

    So according to Wittman, you have issued knives for the DJ and the HJ, the same knife as a souvenir, which is odd, because how come an 'early' one of these knives is an olympic and party day souvenir, but one of these knives is also a last ditch knife for the HJ, and the DJ, and the BDM. It's total crap and as long as guys are buying them for the whatever their 'story of the day' is, they'll keep selling them and raking it in.

    These dealers have shot themselves in the foot so many times with the multitude of different explanations for their existence, that they are a laughing stock. It's pathetic.

    Regards

    Russ

  4. #14

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    And if you believe the 'found in Berlin when the wall fell down' story, you'll believe anything.

    How convenient, a dealer of WW2 German daggers found them in Berlin?

    And the hundreds of thousands of people who lived in Berlin, both sides of the wall never found them?

    But a dealer of German edged weapons from the USA did? Give me a break.

    Why would they be in Berlin?

    Not Solingen?

    Regards

    Russ

  5. #15

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    Ok rattler, a little more digging finds immediate contradiction of what Wittman told you, by Wittman himself. Another fine example of the crap they serve up. See the highlighted paragraph at the end of the description - not found by Johnson at all, but walked into a show in Germany (if you can believe that as well... )

    Regards

    Russ
    Quote Originally Posted by Wittmann Militaria on his sales page

    HYK #38085 DJ Olympic Knife with Original Issue Sack - Emil Voos
    This Olympic Souvenir Knife has the same aluminum hilt as we find on DJ knives.
    The aluminum has a few mild age stains but barring these is in generally good condition throughout.

    The knife is equipped with stag grip plates. The stag has a nice dark tone to its grains throughout. The trimmed edges are just starting to take on a slightly golden tone. Having been protected all of these years they do not have the deep golden oxidation that we normally see on a stag grip. In the center area there is a Hitler Youth enamel diamond. This diamond has perfect enamel throughout and looks great with its red, white, silver and black swastika colors. The grip plates are retained by aluminum rivets which have dressed heads on both sides.
    The scabbard shell is a steel tapered type and it is in good condition throughout. The paint shows a little minor age in the surfaces and very minor traces of rust but is in generally good condition overall. The black leather belt loop is riveted to the scabbard, the rivets showing traces of rust and age. The leather retainer loop is intact and sound, but the snap clip does show mild mild evidence of rust.
    The blade of this knife is etched on the obverse with a crown above a seal having the Berlin bear in the center. The seal and the crown are in a gilt-like color. Below this in five lines is, “ZUM RUHME / DES SPORTS / ZUR EHRE / DES VATER- / LANDES”. This dedication means, “To the glory of sports and the honour of the Fatherland”. Below this is the German sports eagle being a half open-winged bird having a mobile swastika on its breast area. The bird has the five Olympic rings in his talons. These rings are colored in red, green, gold, blue and black.
    The blade still has all of its original crossgraining on it and is still bright. This blade is in near full mint condition. On the reverse, there is the etch of the snake around the stump with the firm’s name and location above and below the stump, “Emil Voos Solingen”. Below this is the protected trademark term, “GES. GESCHTZT”. The original leather washer is in place.
    Accompanying this fine knife is the original issue sack. It is of a manila paper having the Emil Voos name and location printed on the front with the snake around stump logo. Below this is printed the name of the item, “Fahrtenmesser”. Below this in rubber stamping is the type of knife, “Berliner/Olympiade”, and below this is a printing indicating that the knife is produced of “good steel”.

    This is a great opportunity to own one of the last remaining Olympic knives. These knives were found left over in Eastern Germany after the wall went down. There was a large carton of them that was brought into a German show and they were all sold in the middle nineties. Most of these have gone into collections by now so it is rare to see one come up for sale.


  6. #16

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    So now you have a carton of these walked into a show in Germany, not two cases of them found in Berlin by Tom Johnson after the wall came down.

    You see, so many stories, they can't keep track of what they're saying.

    Regards

    Russ
    Last edited by RussellM; 12th March 2016 at 07:54 AM. Reason: sp.

  7. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by RussellM View Post
    And if you believe the 'found in Berlin when the wall fell down' story, you'll believe anything.

    How convenient, a dealer of WW2 German daggers found them in Berlin?

    And the hundreds of thousands of people who lived in Berlin, both sides of the wall never found them?

    But a dealer of German edged weapons from the USA did? Give me a break.

    Why would they be in Berlin?

    Not Solingen

    Russ
    Col Johnson was supposed to have spent about 3 months in Berlin after the wall fell. While there he was to have ran large want ads looking for militaria. Visited shops and also put on a collector show event while there. I can see them being stashed because one did not want to get caught with Nazi items in Berlin back then. And they were not the Reich's Party knife but left over unsold Berlin Olympics knives that were found so it sounds correct to be in the Berlin area.

  8. #18

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    The carbon 14 test will shed the light that is needed on these. Unless one is going to say they were fantasy knives made in the 30s ! And I'm sure some would say that .

  9. #19

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    Sorry to ruin your story, but according to Wittman, the Nurnberg knives were found there as well.

    Again, see the highlighted text.

    So, why would a bunch of Nurnberg knives be found in Berlin?

    Regards

    Russ

    Quote Originally Posted by Wittmann Militaria on his sales page

    HYK #38208 Nrnberg Reichs Party Day Knife – Puma

    This Reichs Party Day Knife is one of the leftovers that was discovered in the late 90's after the fall of the Berlin Wall.

    The hilt parts are of nickel, showing modest age. The grip plates are of genuine stag, the obverse plate being brown with nice looking smooth grain. The reverse has more of the traditional antler grain we are used to seeing, with darker brown tones blended with lighter areas. These plates are retained by aluminum rivets with dressed heads on both sides.
    The scabbard is in excellent condition, straight throughout and retaining 100% of the original paint. The leather carrying loop and retainer strap and in good condition, with a fine working snap.
    The slab-sided blade of this knife has a short ricasso and a false edge at the top. All of the original grain is present. The blade is decorated with gold, black and red enamel. At the top is an open-winged eagle with a wreathed mobile swastika. Below the bird is the name of the event, “Reichspartietag 1935”. Beneath this is the three-tiered turreted castle symbol of Nrnberg and the Nrnberg crest. A very good looking etch here, obviously designed to be sold at the event; apparently they didn't sell well or there wouldn't have been any left over!

    The reverse of the blade is marked with the Puma Diamond trademark, complete with the titular feline. Beneath the diamond is the location city of “Solingen”. The original black leather blade washer is in place.
    A fine example here, perfect to add to a budding HJ collection, or any collection for that matter.
    Near Mint. $1,895.00

    Quite a curious line here, almost like he needs to convince himself they are real.


    "A very good looking etch here, obviously designed to be sold at the event; apparently they didn't sell well or there wouldn't have been any left over!"

  10. #20
    As Russ says, Wittman's stories about the knives under discussion on this forum change even on the same sales page. As I pointed out yesterday on another thread, in 2014 he stated that there was no such thing as a "DJ" knife. This, I have heard from some collectors, was due to a bout of sustained pressure after threads on this forum and one on WAF. Now, in 2016, he likes the knives again despite the fact that nothing new whatsoever has been uncovered in support of them? If he were a witness at a DJ knife trial I strongly suspect that they would throw him out for wasting the court's time.

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