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  1. #1

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    Unusual Hitler Youth knife - RZM M7/12 but marked Wüsthof?

    Hi All,

    I am no expert, and need some advice. HJ dagger that I have access to, got RZM code 7/12 but makers mark Wusthof with logo on the opposite side. 7/12 is not the Wusthof code .....also it has the motto engraved on the blade but 1940 stamped on the ricasso. In all aspects it's a transitional except for the 1940. How is that ? I have checked all the usual clues on the knife and all seems ok .... any advice please.


  2. #2

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    Hi Raymondo, can you please post some good pics of the knife and it's markings, motto, date etc?

    The RZM number and different manufacturer can be explained, the motto with the 1940 date would be most unusual.

    Pics will help.

    Regards

    Russ

  3. #3

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    Thanks !
    I have uploaded 3 photos ....

    Picture 3000.jpg Picture 3001.jpg Picture 3002.jpg

  4. #4

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    Hi Raymondo

    Can you please show a close pic of the diamond looking straight on to it and the same with the RZM mark?

    Regards

    Russ

  5. #5

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    Hi Russ,

    Thanks for your help !
    On looking at the diamond , I have noticed that its off set to one side, and dont align with the studs.
    The diamond has movement though and is not glued in. The studs seem to be brass. The pommel or handle is magnetic.
    I dont doubt its an original knife, but something strange is going on ...
    All the markings are inconsistent. The RZM logo dont join the surrounding circle with its legs ....it is just an M.
    While researching on the internet , I found another knife with exactly the same markings as mine. Its from a dealer in the UK, very expensive and in excellent condition. Its a copy of mine except for the motto on the blade. By the way, I have checked the motto and it is edged into the blade you can feel it with your nail ....
    I am adding the photos from the other knife ( the one for sale ), it is 100% the same as mine .... notice the squad leader insignia attached to the scabbard.
    Please let me know what you think ....I have contacted the guy I bought the knife from, told him there are some inconsistencies with the knife, and Imay like to swap it for one of his other knives.

    HJ 1(1).jpg HJ knife badge.jpg HJ 10.jpg

  6. #6

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    Thanks for the pics of the other knife Raymondo.

    I believe your knife is original in all aspects but would like to see the pics asked for above if possible.

    Knives with a manufacturer logo and an RZM mark attributed to another manufacturer are sometimes seen - I haven't seen your configuration before but have seen 3 or 4 others.

    I believe this may have come about due to a manufacturer running low on blades to fulfill an order - in this case, it would have been Max Weyersberg RZM M7/12. It is possible that they purchased blades from Wusthof, these blades would have already had the motto and maker mark applied. In order to meet regulations, Weyersberg would then have stamped their RZM number to the blade.

    This raises the question about blades with a motto being used after August 1938, when the motto was dis-continued. Perhaps Wusthof would have been happy to move some 'redundant' inventory to Weyersberg and recover some costs, and Weyersberg would have been happy to fulfill an order.

    This is just my opinion but I believe the scenario is quite plausible, but not strictly correct in terms of regulations.

    An interesting knife for sure, if you don't buy it, please let me know.

    Regards

    Russ

  7. #7

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    Hi Russ,

    Ok, these photos are of the knife I bought ...
    Please check them and give me your opinion !
    What you said is plausible, I mean, the knife was manufactured 70+ years ago , there where between 150 and 300 different producers , they were handmade to some extent ...who knows what happened ? But what is your opinion ? To me it seems real in all aspects, except for the strange markings ...

    The knife that I posted photos of previously, the one with the leaders badge on the scabbard, is available on jcm ilitaria com if you are interested. It seems its based here in the UK. I won't be buying it, one of these confusing knives is enough for me ...

    Thanks !

    RayHJ1.jpgHJ2.jpgHJ3.jpg

  8. #8

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    Thanks Ray, after seeing the pic of the diamond and a portion of the motto, I believe the motto is not original - there are quite a few characteristics of it that don't look correct to me from what I can see in your pic, and the etch seems very 'precise', not for me based on your pics. Just my opinion.

    Please pm who is selling it so I can look at their other items.

    Regards

    Russ

  9. #9

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    Final answer ....on the evidence provided please.... My opinion is, it's original but may have been altered at some stage.

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