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  1. #11

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    I have other examples of these MHJ tallies with the numbers removed but not in my collection. I will post them here when I have permission, maybe in a few weeks. John

  2. #12

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    HJ Marine Mutze comment

    thanks for your opinion's john,.i attatched a few pics of lads wearing different types of HJ-marine caps with different types of insignia i had in my archives,just for future reference.

    cheers,
    si
    Attached Images Attached Images

  3. #13

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    hi john yeah i did closely check for remnants of an RZM tag,.but most of them were stitched in with the liner so if it came off,.the stitching would still be there.& other than the paper slid under the sweat patch,.which is very old,.you can tell by the yellowing in the paper & the faded ink,.there is sighns of use,.being alot of sweat stains throughout,.the linerband & interior.though yeah other than the name tag,.no other markings are seen,.there is an RZM marking on the diamond pin,.though i could not make out the number without damaging the pin.as for the numbers as we know as the HJ grew groups/bann etc were merged so i believe the numbers were removed for that reason.i have also seen tallys with numbers pinned over existing numbers.thanks for the tally pics.

    si

  4. #14

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    In regards to the prong back membership pin, you are correct. Do not even try to put any pressure on them as the pins will break off without warning. There is a fix if that happens using super glue, but best not to break the pins in the first place.

    John

  5. #15

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    Hi,

    well, I fully agree with everything what John wrote. As long as you are comfortable with the story which came with the cap. However, it will be hard to document/prove the genuinity of the story to a potential buyer in case you plan to sell this cap one day.

    What I would like to know is where you've got the sample pictures from, which you have posted in post #12. Unfortunately I have no right to open the images yet.

    The reason for removing Gefolgschaft and Bann- numbers from cap tallies is unknown to me. I have seen it on several occasions and Weitze had a Danzig tally for sale, where you can observe the very same (not sure whether it was sold in the meantime). Also, there were tallies with removed Gefolgschaft- numbers, which is easier to explain: a boy transferred from one Gefolgschaft to another and no new tally was instantly available to him. Gef.-nbr removed or replaced by metall numbers and off he went with this tally until he got the new tally. However, all this doesn't explain the removal of Bann-nbrs.

    Rgds

    Daniel

  6. #16

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    Another important point for you: to support the story which came with the cap, you should buy a few items from Günther Eisentraut which prove that he was raised in Koblenz. Otherwise it is only a flimsy name tag which connects a cap to a person (who was born in Berlin!) and a story ... A HJ membership card would be best - or: ANY other correspondence which mentions his name and the town of Koblenz.

    What is remarkable is that he put two Christian names on his name tag, instead of his first and his family name ...

    Also, the dealer should be supportive with information when the family moved to Koblenz. Keep in mind, that Koblenz and Berlin are 600 km apart - it's not like moving to the next village and it was not very often in these days, that families moved that far.

    Daniel

  7. #17
    Thank you for replying here Dani. Your thoughts and comments are most appreciated.

  8. #18

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    i was actually mistaken,..after more research & conversations with my dealer he was actually born in Hamburg.i have researched his profile on a site we have here in Aus called Ancestry.com & it all coincides with the providence i have received from my dealer & the Eisentraut family here in Melbourne,Victoria.i am awaiting word from my dealer on hopefully some additional items from the family,some photo's most likely.thanks for your comment.i disagree with the "people did'nt move around theory" people were posted & moved around all over the country,as they were preparing for war.

    si

  9. #19

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    I was just in Hamburg visiting Dani. Interesting city and the Maritime Museum is worth seeing. Also ship SS Cap San Diego. The Bismarck dock is clearly visible from the other side of the river but they will not let you into the shipyard no matter how much experience you might have with shipyards and ships as Dani and I found out.

    Anyway, I think what Dani is saying is that while official personnel transfers are common in war, family moves at that time in Germany were different due to many economic and social reasons. Uprooting a family, especially in Germany during the war, might have been more common later due to bombings and shrinking frontlines (from the perspective of Germany). While Germany is somewhat considered an industrialized country during that war due to its prodigious military output, it was still primarily an agrarian country nevertheless. So to move a farmer's family someplace else, or a shopkeeper, or a mine worker, a good reason needed to be established.

    All that discussion aside, and others should comment, what Dani is trying to point out is that for your purposes, anything you can get from the family in the way of provenance helps when you purchase artifacts from this era. Speculating that a boy might have moved here and there is one thing, if you can get documentation in the form of paperwork or even an oral narrative signed by the dealer or the family, that would be great. I have tried this many times with families, but it can be hard.

    However, if you keep at it, who knows what kind of file you will be able to amass and I have seen collectors given large amounts of paperwork and artifacts for free from families that thought the collector would take care of those items. I have even had old Waffen SS men freely discuss their wartime activities once they settled down and determined that the motives for the discussion were out of an interest in them personally and not a critical assessment of their record. I do not collect anything but MHJ and KM war badges, so my discussions with German veterans have been by accidental introductions for the most part.

    So I think that is all Dani is saying. Get the information, build the file, do the research. After all, this forum is called the HJ Research Forum and for me, research is the best part of the hobby.

    John

  10. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by wingman15 View Post
    i was actually mistaken,..after more research & conversations with my dealer he was actually born in Hamburg.i have researched his profile on a site we have here in Aus called Ancestry.com & it all coincides with the providence i have received from my dealer & the Eisentraut family here in Melbourne,Victoria.i am awaiting word from my dealer on hopefully some additional items from the family,some photo's most likely.thanks for your comment.i disagree with the "people did'nt move around theory" people were posted & moved around all over the country,as they were preparing for war.

    si
    Si, I love Melbourne. Steamed into the harbor once upon a time and had a great time. Long sea and anchor detail as I remember, but not a difficult transit wth the pilot. People in that city were so friendly and hospitable to us. Will never forget the people of that city. John

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