Let's talk about the 'Deutsches Jungvolk knife' and the 'BDM knife'

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Hi Amp, think about this senario, because i believe it hits the nail on the head.
In the early years, writing TR militaria books was the In-Thing, and there was a huge surge.. now most of these dealers still cant understand German, so what they possibly, and quite honestly, believed was a period piece decades ago, that has now been proven a fantasy or a fake, even though deep down inside they KNOW this, and they agree too, they cant state the opposite.

• If they did they would loose face
• If they did it would start ppl talking, i.e. If they screwed up with these daggers, then just what else did they screw up with?
• They would go broke giving refunds... these Puff Skulls are quick off the mark to say "Lifetime guarantee" and the rest, but if push came to shove, they would not have enough money to cover the refunds. (Look at Detlev Niemann, for example, and another German Dealer who i wont name, but who is up to his neck in law suits ant the moment.)

The "damaging" part, is that they wont admit anything for fear of going broke (or being stabbed with their fake $49,995.- daggers at some show) so they are still rooting for them, even though they, and all their buddies know that they are rooting for crap. Hows that saying go? "Oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to decieve" :thumb:
 
An accurate analysis in my opinion M. I guess this is why those guys are notably absent on this forum (hj research). I've been a lurker here for some time now and joined because I like the forum's style and its approach and yes, I'll admit it, because I wanted to view attachments :001_smile: In my opinion the way this forum approaches collecting is leading the way and is a symptom of the current state of collecting. I mean 'symptom' in a positive way of course. WAf is the best of the large militaria forums but it suffers too much from cronyism. Sure - there are some very experienced and honest guys over there but it all gets bogged down because noone is controlling things and asking people in general to back up what they say. All you normally see is teh status quo being preserved and we all know who most benifits from that. A good example of what I mean is your recently started thread on the membership badges because where you guys will only add a maker to the list if there is proof that he had a license, the WAf thread lets any old badge on as long as it doesn't look like a fake. That's the important difference.
 
Are these a product of HOUSE OF SWORDS ? in most HOS catalogs that i have (i have quite a few) the DJ knife is pictured for sale.
For those who dont know, HOS was one of the world leaders in Forging fantasy and fake Blades/Swords, that were so good that they even fool collectors today. (not just Third Reich stuff, all kinds of swords and daggers from various countries and periods)

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Good find Jo. Although, I can hear the dealers now: "if they were copying it, then this is proof that it must be a period knife". I don't think that they would be that stupid though.
 
No mate, copy a knife that today, we know cant be real, so what did they copy? they invented it, they created fantasy daggers for all services... of course they copied too, but if you are open to what logic is saying, then we know, that they did not copy it, but either invented it, or were one of the large sellers or it back in the mid 1970`s at the least... the following Fantasy SS dagger, i just photoed from one of the same HOS catalogs that has a DJ knife on the next page..... and look at that bdagger today??? LINK TO EXTERNAL FORUM THREAD HERE.
It`s often misleading for collectors who dont play around with these items, to comprehend that these items were aged, they were not sold brand spankers, and now, 30,40 years later, look like the real deal. Not this fantasy SS dagger though, coz it`s easy to spot as fantasy, but the other stuf, that was selling like hot cakes back then, and is still going strong!

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I'm adding the content of your post (#43) to the wiki at the moment Jo. What date/issue number was the HOS catalogue you used there?

Interesting too is that the HOS knives don't have the diamond on the scabbard. Does anyone know if one of the diamonds from a 'DJ' knife has ever been shown in removed state?
 
Garry said:
I'm adding the content of your post (#43) to the wiki at the moment Jo. What date/issue number was the HOS catalogue you used there?

Interesting too is that the HOS knives don't have the diamond on the scabbard. Does anyone know if one of the diamonds from a 'DJ' knife has ever been shown in removed state?
Click to expand...
That Iqbal chappy has one minus diamond, with only two roughly drilled, and off center holes showing. As for the diamond, pointless, because whatever the outcome, the Powers that be would twist it to their advantage, if it was good, they would say thats proof, if it was bad, they would say "Oh well it must have been replaced post war, these things do happen, if you dont like it dont buy it...vet bring back..sob sob...motel buy..genuine..sob sob..

House of Swords and Militaria Catalog 10 (late 1970`s) and 32 (around 1985) Prices were around $40.- per DJ dagger. (not a bad increase since then, that Iqbal chappy has a tag of 500 on the drilled one minus badge, and 600 on the one with added diamond. We know that Wittman charges loads more... great 80`s investment pieces these were.... as you can read from their sales pitch, these were worn by the kiddies, before they went into the HJ. Boys and girls :sad:
 
Thanks Jo, I'll add the scans and the catalogue dates to the article now. Yes, I agree with you on the diamond of course but it would nevertheless be interesting to see the reverse of one after removal from the scabbard. Can't see anyone destroying their treasured knife to show the diamond though of course..
 
Carried by the BDM... imagine tooling up the girls at such a young age..what would there Mothers have said...
The photos are bad, i`ll make some proper scans in a minute
 
These are better

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Ever notice the "German Quality" holes drilled onto the scabbards .. These images are from the one up at Collector-2-Collector militaria

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Thanks for the upgraded pics of the knives Jo. That pic above would be great in the 'Characteristics' section of the DJ knife article.
 
At least todays copies of the copies of the copies now have a sunken Diamond.

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Some pages from Thomas M Johnson's Collecting the Edged Weapons of the Third Reich Volume One.

Page 78 - Hitler Youth and Description of the HJ knife and who wore it (HJ & DJ)

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Page 81 - The DJ Fahrtenmesser

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Notice above how the HJ knife was for both organisations (HJ & DJ), but the 'DJ' knife was (also) authorised for wear by the DJ???????


From Thomas M Johnson's Collecting the Edged Weapons of the Third Reich Volume Two.

Page 74 - HJ manufacturers from the 1934 issue of Die Klinge.

Notice how there is only one knife in the photograph (your regular everyday HJ knife), and is bordered by the text saying Makers of the scout knife for the Hitler Youth and the German Youth. No sign of the 'DJ' knife.

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Regards

Russ
 

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"This small knife was authorized for wear..."
This is why this guy, and his cronies, will never join a forum, because they would get shredded in minutes for writing BS.

It was not only NEVER AUTHORIZED for wear,it was also never mentioned, never pictured, never photographed, nobody on gods greens planet knows anything about it, except the author.
Yep, cutting edge research books indeed... what a load of toss, the guy should be ashamed of himself ...
 
Thanks for the pics Russ and Jo. Dreadful, just dreadful. I don't know where to start really... Yeah, lots of people will read that scan from Johnson's book and think "that's wrong, okay that's right but that date is miles out, that's wrong too" but plenty of others over the years will have swallowed that stuff like a gannet. It's deception, pure and simple and if you look at Wittman's descriptions of his HJ stock you can see that he is just taking everything straight from Johnson's book. Well, apart from the introduction date of the HJ knife because of course, Wittmann is convinced, against all of the proof, that he has a late-1920s HJ knife and it is still on sale despite the pounding it took. I'll add the scans to the Wiki articles today.
 
Russ, do you know whether the later volumes of the Johnson book correct any of the stuff he is saying here in volume one? Or is this the only volume to deal with Hitler Youth items?
 
Yes mate, dreadful, and enough to make many give up altogether. Especially if you shopped at these nitwits and made them fat!
Dont despair, more people should go down the path i am on now.. i still collect, still enjoy it, BUT my hobby interests have slightly changed, i now get much more fun and enjoyment out of proving the big-wigs WRONG. And do not mind investing, or spending - cash to buy fakes, just to bust them up and show people why they cant be original. This dagger stuff is tempting mate, really tempting for me to buy all his/their books, and spend a year or two ripping them apart, not writing a DAGGER book, but writing a book about THE BIG SCAM, and exposing the top names in-print!
 
I'm just working on the DJ knife wiki article at the moment and I have that 'Deutsche Jugend Messer' thread from WAF (THE best thread on these knives outside of our forum) open in another tab so that I can get the pics and go through what was said. I'd almost forgotten how vague and evasive Weinand was and how people couldn't (didn't want to) understand the simplest of facts.
 
This is a great thread on The Bogus DJ Knife & its variations !!!

Has anybody ever challenged TW to fact that these DJ Knifes are Bogus & he is selling them for mega $$$$$ for many years ?

This is FRAUD IMO :sneaky2:



Regards Mac 66.
 
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