HJ LEADERS SIDE CAP

Hello Garry,

All my apologies, but the thread you quotes has nothing to do with Paul's overseas cap.
Garry, what everyone here is asking, could we give a possible credibility to this HJ overseas cap?.
As for me, I prefer to remain cautious before throwing the stone.
I think the same as Joecool, I hope we will find more arguments in the near future.
We don't have any regulation at the moment but we have a photo, haven't we?.

Best Regards
Eric
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I don't think that the photo is proof for the silver cord. That could be a different colour on this chap's cap. I will agree though that it looks to be thicker than the standard cord. Who is the guy in the photo?
 
pretty sure it is the silver cord comes out well in black and white.
Am hoping our Mr SARIS HAS HAD A LOOK AND CAN GIVE A COMMENT. have JUST BOUGHT ALL 5 COPIES OF HIS BOOK set HEADGEAR of HITLERS GERMANY very detailed and descriptive , but still missing a bit on the youth headgear and thinking that will be vol 6 soon.:canada1oh published by BENDER
 
I fully agree with Garry in post 6. When the piping is added, it surely is
not according any regulation
. But could be done, as one often offended
the regulations. This one finds out from time to time. The color for the
piping can be white or yellow with the wearing photo. The guy in the
photo won't tell us!

HJ was planned for volume 6, but due to the many information the book
would have become to thick (as the triangles book) and that was not
wanted by mr. Bender, due to the costs for shipping etc. Now other
organizations like Reichsbahn will be included in volume 6 (with Strassen-
bahn and Bahnschutz) and possibly Post and Postschutz. Volume 7 will
be dedicated to customs and forestry in general. Do not now if I do live
that long to go into HJ, but then Bender must agree with two volumes
(HJ = one volume and schools etc. is another volume).
 
Hi Garry,

Yes of course I understand what you mean and I am reassured when I read your answer.

I have no idea what that means. Sarcasm?

Eric, you provide the evidence that the silver cord denotes "trainee HJ leader" or "HJ leader" or "something else" and I'll wind my neck in. Remember, I'm not making an assertion about this cord. I am questioning the nomenclature used by sellers/owners.

Now, you might think that I blindly base all of my opinions on this forum on what is contained in the primary literature but as I said, I'm not stupid. You may even think that I consider myself to be a "historian" and you would be laughably wrong. All I am is someone with a huge interest in the HJ movement, a lot of primary literature and the ability to read it. The word "historian" in the forum banner is not a declaration, it's a signal. It is designed to attract potential members/readers who are looking for information for schoolwork, a thesis, information for a book, things like that.

The reality of HJ equipment, insignia and uniforms is that the regulations were not always adhered to. Yes, I understand that and indeed, I could get a child to understand that in less than a minute. I have always seen my purpose on this forum as someone who can hopefully add something from the primary literature that would assist a collector in making an informed decision about a given item. I'm not the only one one on this forum who has the resources to do that of course but nevertheless, that was always my aim.

I was never a big collector and I only collected for a few years. I do not, therefore have the huge amount of hands-on experience of many of our members here but... I have never claimed that to be the case and this is why you will usually see me reporting from the regulations. That's my attempt to assist in the clarification of an item and that's how my comments should be viewed. It feels strange to have to explain that to someone...

It takes a good mixture to make a good forum: experienced collectors, those who have access to a lot of primary sources, those who are both, beginners with interesting questions... We need all of them Eric so please take everything I say on this forum in that vein. Although they sometimes can be, I don't consider regulations to be the final word, I see them as a part of the answer. If I can help, I will but it will most often be from the primary literature and if I see potential or actual BS on this forum I will most likely go at it in the same manner.
 
There has never been any sarcasm on my part and I sincerely think that you have summarized the situation perfectly. Your explanations suit me and I think there is no need for further discussion.
 
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The aluminum piping is still questioning me. I have checked all relevant regulations,
but nowhere such piping is being mentioned. Neither it is ever mentioned leaders
could or should wear the field-cap. A special "FeldmĂĽtze" was mentioned in late 1938.
It was said details would be published. I have not found this anywhere!

Maybe an aluminum piped field-cap was intended for leaders from an NPEA. Who
knows? The photo from post 4 might be NPEA or such. It is not stated anywhere, but
as we know and have seen rare things, it is always a possibility!!
 
Ok ... can we all agree to not agree on this one ... The cap could also be a generic summer weight Political cap , nobody knows for sure .... yet .
 
1) I remind you that we must all remain impartial and objective.
It would be detrimental to influence anyone in the debate.

2) This overseas cap is not a tinkering at all.

3) The photo that I posted is credible but a detail disturbs me a lot.
The leader shown is not an HJ leader, but a NPEA inspector.
Look carefully at his jacket and his shoulder boards !
I am surprised that only one person has seen this detail.
 
1) I remind you that we must all remain impartial and objective.
It would be detrimental to influence anyone in the debate.


I'm sorry Eric but that is nonsense.

"Objective" = look at the item and judge it on its characteristics. What is it telling us? This cap cannot be explained through observation alone.

"Impartial" = To have an opinion on something like this cap means, by definition, that you cannot be impartial. As soon as you state your opinion you take a side in the debate. What is meant (in the forum banner) by "Impartial" is: HJ-Research is not run for or by dealers. It is therefore not beholden to anyone because we do not have to satisfy advertisers.

WIDUKIND said:
"it would be detrimental to influence anyone in the debate"

What with? Facts? Wim and I have stated that summer caps with silver cord are not described or shown in the Hitler Youth regulations. That is a fact. It does not answer the question of why this cap and the others on the forum have a silver cord but it is, nevertheless, a fact and as such it is useful. If I am going to be swayed in my opinion then a fact is much more likely to do that than say, your subjective opinion and a blurry photo that may or may not show a person wearing a cap like the one under discussion here.

You are the one who is influencing the debate with an opinion Eric, not I. I am only interested in one thing:

Why are dealers/sellers describing this cap as being for "HJ-Führeranwärter", "HJ Leader"? Do they know something we don't? Are they simply guessing? I have not once said that the cap is a fake because of the cord.
 
The cap appears to be original to me. I agree that to call the cap a "leaders" cap or call it out in any way without some type of supporting documentation is supposition at best. We all know that sometimes the regulations were confusing, ignored, or that alterations to uniforms and insignia in anticipation of new regulations were made as shown in period photos. Perhaps one day we will find solid documentation of the reason that caps like this are seen. I think it's being sold as a "leaders" cap because dealers often put any HJ item with white or silver piping into the "leader" category for lack of HJ knowledge. I have had over a dozen dealers tell me that a triangle with a traditionslitze was for an HJ leader! Is it for a specific specialty Schule or N.P.E.A.? I don't know, perhaps. But again that's just a possibility or a guess and my area of knowledge is more along the cloth insignia arena.
 
The cap appears to be original to me. I agree that to call the cap a "leaders" cap or call it out in any way without some type of supporting documentation is supposition at best. We all know that sometimes the regulations were confusing, ignored, or that alterations to uniforms and insignia in anticipation of new regulations were made as shown in period photos. Perhaps one day we will find solid documentation of the reason that caps like this are seen. I think it's being sold as a "leaders" cap because dealers often put any HJ item with white or silver piping into the "leader" category for lack of HJ knowledge. I have had over a dozen dealers tell me that a triangle with a traditionslitze was for an HJ leader! Is it for a specific specialty Schule or N.P.E.A.? I don't know, perhaps. But again that's just a possibility or a guess and my area of knowledge is more along the cloth insignia arena.

Thank you for your objective comments Darin, the debate moves on and I really like it.
Sorry, but I'm not good at rhetoric and especially in the language of Shakespeare.
I have never wanted to influence anyone and the members of this forum who know me well, know that it is not in my habits.
I just gave my point of view.
When I posted my photo, I wanted to give a chance to this Leaders overseas cap, a possible credibility.
I find very unpleasant to receive arrows as thanking and it annoys me enormously. Huge disappointment.
 
Read post #4 Eric. That's where you took things in a different direction. All I stated prior to that was that silver cord on these caps is not mentioned in the regulations. However, it's clear that you have interpreted that to mean the following:

"no summer caps are mentioned in the regulations that have a silver cord. Therefore, the cap is fake because the regulations are always right".

I did not say that, you just think I did.

What shall we do Eric? Throw the primary literature in the bin and just start making guesses whenever we see an item that we don't recognise?
 
I think the leader, shown with post 4, just does wear the white
piping for NPEA. No more then that!

Who knows we find a letter one day, which tells us the plan about
the introduction for aluminum for leaders. But until, now: NO.

And remind, manufacturers also made mistakes and interpreted the
new regulations wrongly. This happened with various occasions.
This one can understand when reading some announcements.
 
Just wanted to say that this is/was an interesting and useful discussion. However, I misinterpreted some things that Eric (Widukind) said and ended up taking the discussion off course. Sorry Eric!
 
I agree Garry. A great discussion of the item. It's difficult at times without being face to face to fully understand what others are trying to convey. I think we do pretty well here in that regard most of the time considering that members here are from all over the globe!
 

Hello,

Summer caps with silver cord did exist. See picture below.

Best regards



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thanks for the pic is there any more info on it? Appears to be a more lighter weight material than mine but same silver wire application and what is the insignia cloth or metal.must be an upgraded hj summer mutze :canada1very excited to see this pic BUT MORE SO SOMETHING ON PAPER FROM THE PERIOD NEEDED
 
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