A & B designation on Deschler awards.

[Wim Vangossum]

Hi everyone,

Just after Jo showed me some new pictures of two Deschler awards i came to a total of 14 examples in my files. When I take a look at the numbers that following the "A" or "B" designation, I think there is some starting proof that (like some people already assumed, the "B" stand for a replancement badge and the A was the officially awarded example. Reason?

All the A badges (six in my files) sitting in the 100.000 number range. Now the examples with a "B" designation jumping around in every direction.

Regards, Wim

 

[Jo Rivett]

Wim, i have always thought this.... I think the confusion comes when compared to other Deschler made badges like the SSFM with many different letters, the HJ honor badges have only an A or a B, and of course marked with the number of the person who applied for a replacement or second badge.
On this forum somewhere, there is a List of HJ Golden badges that were lost, together with their names.... supporting what i have always said, with relationship to the HJ Golden sports (M1/101) and HJ Honor (M1/120) that are all in mint condition but with no actual persons number... If you owned one of these, then surely you would want your Number on it, or if it was not numbered, then you would number it yourself in case it got lost ans so just might be able to find it`s way back to you. I personally don't like any form of High award (GPB, HJ sports, HJ Honor) that is not numbered.

 

[Garry]

Here's that list Jo: http://www.hj-research.com/forum/f28/who-wore-my-hj-honour-badge-hj-ehrenzeichen-285/


As far as the numbering of replacement badges go here is the relevant regulation which, for me, provides a plausible reason for why Deschler marked the badges with A and B and for why the Deschler B badge serial numbers seem to jump around as Wim describes.

It also explains the B badges with no serial number of course:

'The Stabsführer has ordered that replacement versions of the HJ-Ehrenzeichen will no longer be issued with a serial number....'

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[Jo Rivett]

Garry, yes i know, but i still don't like them, and wouldn't want one. I just have something against that horrible clasp (found on the M1/120) and the way it`s made. (The same clasp is found on the Fake HJ Skiführer, Polizeiführer etc etc...) I have a very different approach when collecting as well, i would rather have a numbered piece, worn and rubbed that's "been there and done it" instead of some minty item which possibly never saw a Uniform or was made after 1945 The only HJ Golds that i would buy are the M1/70; M1/49, M1/78 and M1/52. It`s a case of each to his own on this subject i guess.

 

[Garry]

Ah, sorry Jo. Slight misunderstanding there on my part. I thought you meant that you didn't think that the 'B' badges were real.

'More haste less speed' required on my part

 

[Jo Rivett]

Ah, sorry Jo. Slight misunderstanding there on my part. I thought you meant that you didn't think that the 'B' badges were real.

'More haste less speed' required on my part

Not at all, there are unnumbered Golden Party Badges as well, BUT, the only Genuine ones i have ever seen, all had the number hand engraved by either a jeweler or the guy himself. So putting myself back in the shoes of someone who had to order a replacement... I would most certainly scratch or have my Number engraved on the back. (This *personalization* can be observed on many High awards) So my opinion is therefore, that any Minty M1/120 (with typical Austrian fake clasp...sorry, just had to..lol ) was either never worn, which in this case i dont want it, or, it`s a post 45 fake. The same goes for any Replacement piece that is not numbered.. Maybe they are genuine, and have that "Been there" but lack the "Done it" for me
maybe it`s a stigma, after all, a Replacement is like coming in second... good, but still not First.

 

[Wim Vangossum]

It is everyone's personal feeling when it comes to certain items, Jo. Personally I have no problems with the Deumers. I think Garry has some solid evidence that a better holding safety pin was demanded for the HJ badges because too many got lost. That's way ,IMO, Deumer came with that pin with lock system.

Regards, Wim

 

[Garry]

Here you go Wim:

'Sicherungsschutz'

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[Jo Rivett]

It is everyone's personal feeling when it comes to certain items, Jo. Personally I have no problems with the Deumers. I think Garry has some solid evidence that a better holding safety pin was demanded for the HJ badges because too many got lost. That's way ,IMO, Deumer came with that pin with lock system.

Regards, Wim

Sure Wim, they were used before this as well on Jewelry .. i just don't like em, that's all :001_tt2:

 

[Wim Vangossum]

Thanks for showing that period document, Garry


As you can see I have a weakness for Deumers, JO. However, I wished it were four M1/49 Baumeister's

Regard, Wim

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[Jo Rivett]

Thanks for showing that period document, Garry


As you can see I have a weakness for Deumers, JO. However, I wished it were four M1/49 Baumeister's

Regard, Wim

Wim, that's the Feminine-Belgian in you that likes them :001_tt2:
I`ll take a 'Mans-pin' any day over these.
btw, there is a M1/49 up at Mili321 at the moment for €199.- which given the currency conversion present, is a damn good price ! the seller can also be trusted.

auction link pics below. It has been up for a while, but thats not surprising, as many folk still don't like the Ges.Gesch and M1/ number together I love em, and would say that M1/49 HJ ehrenzeichen are amongst the rarest !

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[Jo Rivett]

As you can see I have a weakness for Deumers
Regard, Wim

To Deumer or not to Deumer .. that is the question.
Wim, once you have the second edition of German Medal makers and their marks, you will find out some interesting facts, Deumer's neighbor, was Assmann and quite a few of the Big named makers were related, and even owned by other makers, so just because a certain makers number is on the reverse, does not mean that they made it. The new book well enlighten you as to how large contracts were handled as well.

 

[Wim Vangossum]

Looking forward to buy an see the new book. At the moment -like always- I'm completly out of money; a HJ Honour with bezitsurkunde and an FM honor award are waiting for me and have to be payed first. Almost forgot the cased kreissieger and the HJ marksman badge. Wished I had a fine account in Swiss

Regards, Wim

 

[Jo Rivett]

Wished I had a fine account in Swiss

Ja Wim, our Frank has stayed stable and is now the leading currency. Great for me to buy from Outside Switzerland, but bad for a € earner i guess...
I can open an Account for you, but you would need to fill it though ! what i can do, is get you a cheap Hotel room in Engelberg, as from Sunday i`ll be working there for the next 6 months, midnight to 7am, starring up at Titlis Once i`m well into the job, i`ll mail you a few photos, it`s a magic place, with breathtaking scenery.. but you know that though

Yes, the €uro pinch must be felt, as that M1/49 is a steal at €199.- and i just cant see why it is still up for sale after so long ?

 

[Paul Ayerst]

I think if the dealer took paypal it would sell faster many of us will never use bank transfers to expensive and no protection