Christopher Ailsby and the Golden HJ Honour Badge with Oak leaves.

[WARLORD]

In your question about Nimmergut, I have no comment as I did not know the man. Klaus Patzwall is a fine researcher so he may have found out more? I remember when I showed an Aircrew badge in cloth many years ago, it was considered a fantasy piece. Klaus Patzwall put one in his book.

As to the badge you have shown, the pin,hinge and hook construction are not as the known originals but are like that on the Zink wear piece. The price also is that which I would have put on the zink piece.

 

[Jo Rivett]

In your question about ,Nimmergut, I have no comment as I did not know the man.Klaus Patzwalls is a fine reasercher, so he may have found out more? I remember when I showed an Aircrew badge in cloth many years agp, it was concidered a Fantersey piece. Klaus Patzwalls put one in his book.

As to the badge you have shown, the pin,hinge and hook construction are not as the known originalsw, but are like that on the Zink wear piece. The price also is that which I would have put on the zink piece.

Thanks for the speedy reply.
Jörg Nimmergut is still, the only (as far as i know) vereidigter Sachverständiger für Orden und Ehrenzeichen in Germany. What that means basically, is that should any legal assistance in court be required, or any "Last word" on Medals etc.. for legal reasons, customs etc etc, then his "opinion, estimate or last word" is the Last word So if he says it`s real, then it`s legally, officially real. For whatever thats worth ?
I dont know any of the two Gentlemen mentioned, i have seen them before, from a distance, but thats about it In saying that, When reading Patzwalls GPB book, even though he slams Nimmergut plenty of times, and reveals many mistakes or errors in his books, even though for this reason alone his book is very uncomfortable to read, and seems to be more a boxing max between giants, everything he says is based on detailed research and fact, so at the end of the day, i guess they Triumph above any reputation or degree.

•Yes the attachment, well they were replaced, fixed etc, Golden Party badges and others show this sometimes too, so i say best not to judge the authenticity of such an expensive item just on the attachment. In fact, this particular pin plate with crimp in the middle was used before the third reich, during, and even today, so very hard, if not impossible to go by this particular attachment. (could be 1914-2011)
Now i have to ask:
Lets leave the pin and plate out of this for a moment, after all, i am certain that these kind of High end items are not judged solely by looking at the attachment, so what other aspects of the badge (the weitze one above) would you be looking at, in order to form some sort of opinion on authenticity ?

 

[WARLORD]

The construction of the reverse of the two types of this badge are not as that you have shown. The badge could NOT have had a replacement pin as shown, as this would not cover the other form of furniture used on these badges. The oak leaves and corner embellishments are not as detailed as the silver and gold produced badge.

I can only say please see the pictures in my book and I think your questions will be answered

 

[Jo Rivett]

The construction of the reverse of the two types of this badge are not as that you have shown. The badge could NOT have had a replacement pin as shown, as this would not cover the other form of furniture used on these badges. The oak leaves and corner embellishments are not as detailed as the silver and gold produced badge.

I can only say please see the pictures in my book and I think your questions will be answered

So the Weitze €3500.- is not genuine?

 

[WARLORD]

I could NOT possibly say if it was or was not genuine. One would have to have it in hand to make those judgements. The price €3500, is extremely cheap for such an award. Take for example a Blood Order, €6000.

 

[Jo Rivett]

I could NOT possibly say if it was or was not genuine. One would have to have it in hand to make those jugments. The price €3500, is extreemly cheap for such an award. Take for example a Blood Order, €6000.

Why would you need to have it in hand? the pictures are clear enough, and seeing as you have researched and writen about them, and own a few different "100% original" versions, you will certainly be best qualified to determine whether it`s a good piece, or a version that you have never seen before or a version that could not be considered original?
What extra information could you possibly extract out of this badge if you had it "in hand" ?

 

[WARLORD]

Reaserch requires having the piece to be able to see the individual signatures of the maker. Pictures can be most miss leeding. A shado here or there can make an original look a copy.

I doubt very much if an art expert would give a definite view on a painting as to its master from a photo.

 

[Jo Rivett]

Reaserch requires having the piece to be able to see the individual signatures of the maker. Pictures can be most miss leeding. A shado here or there can make an original look a copy.

I doubt very much if an art expert would give a definite view on a painting as to its master from a photo.

Would i be correct is assuming the following then, based on what you have just posted:
Every forum post, where pictures are shown and opinions are given, is null en void. After all, we dont actually have the item in hand, but are only judging by photos. What would be the solution here, to ask Weitze to send you the badge first to inspect before you commit? this translates across the board, and would apply to every dealer and every item offered. After all, they are only offering pictures and expect us to make a judgement based on the description and image. If this is, according to your post, not possible, then what is the solution to this? Could this also be a reason why we are so swamped with fantasy and fakes, as we dont get to inspect the item, but have to rely on forums, opinions, pictures in reference books and then make a choice.

What would the purpose be then of reference books, even yours :001_huh: as they also only contain pictures accompanied by a description and opinion.
Or maybe this only applies to these specific HJ leafy badges? or expensive items...and all other smaller items are easily Authenticated by images and comparison only? What would the purpose be then of writing any Reference book, if at the end of the day we really need to have the item in hand in order to say for sure?

Do you have every "form" and version of the Leafy HJ gold badge in your collection then? or have you held every form/version? after all, you would need to, seeing as you have writen about them, determining what is good and what versions there were, therefore you would have needed to physically view and hold every version known in order to actually write about them? Therefore the next question, This €3500.- weitze badge, have you seen this version before? have you held one, inspected one, and what opinion did you reach? (if you have not held one before, then how do you know it is not just another Original version, in Buntmetal. After all, we have Solid Gold, goldwashed messing and Zinc so far.... why not buntmetal as well like this one?

 

[WARLORD]

These pieces are very rare, they are jeweller made. I have inspected the pieces in the book, owning 3. Your summation that the badge you have shown could be another version. I can not say that this is not the case. The main point is that there are 2 design types. The first, I have only seen once and is in real gold. This design is totally different in the oak leaves. The second type is found in real gold, real silver and zink. This is the type shown in the thread. In response to your question, "This €3500.- weitze badge, have you seen this version before?" the short answer is NO.

In response to your first line of thought, pictures on forums can be misleading. Reference books can also, I have made some in the past. However all interchange is a help to collectors. BUT HOLDING THE PIECE IN HAND is the best way. Compare weights, measurements and even smell. If you write then do your research and write from what you have. You can revisit the piece time and time again. I hope this clarifies the position for you and is helpful.

 

[operaman]

I guess the only way to tell if is real or not is if you took it off the boy's dead body! It might be foolish but I seem to trust experts and reference books thats about all we have Trust has to come in some where or we would never own anything so where is the fun in collecting

 

[Paul Ayerst]

I just can not fathom why the GOLDEN HJ HONOUR BADGE WITH OAK LEAVES is found in any other material than gold. With such a low issue how could this be and how could there be more than one maker. This is a high status award and even at wars end other such awards where of highest quality. There is a problem here and IMO any award but a true gold one should be avoided like the plague unless found with the full provenance and paper work to the individual which I think unlikely.

 

[Jo Rivett]

These pieces are very rare, they are jewler made.

Just so as we are on the same track here, what pieces are rare and Jewler made? all of the the 200-400 known Originals? Zinc Gold Silver and Messing ? .. all Jeweler made? (sounds like Germanicvs-Internationalvs`tag-line on his SS rings, and everything else ... possibly Jeweler-made. Before i say "bollocks" (which i probably will later anyway) i will see if there is any proof of this in your book, ie: a Period Jeweler reciept/offer/letterhead or period mention that the contact for these HJ Golden Leafy badges was given to a Jewler.
[you do mean a Period German Jewler, and not a UK Jewler in the mid 1980`s ]
I have a mate in the UK who posted me a copy of your book that you mentioned a few posts back, so after it arrives, and i have read the HJ golden leafy section/pages, i will post again.
To say that you have never seen the weitze badge is not quite correct if you compare your Strange leafy boarder badge (middle one in post N°1) with his, you will note, that the HJ diamond, is, the same one used for both. (hmmmm) Quite a bit more to follow on this thread, after i`ve read your Chapter/article on these. I possibly have a nice surprise for you as well......

 

[Jo Rivett]

I think you will find the badge linked to HH IS THE SAME AS ONE THAT STARTED THE THREAD.

Sorry, but this is far from acurate, your first badge is similar, but the leaf border is very different and basic, (on the Gold one at HH, each leaf has the grove or seam carved outwards from the middle, as leaves do, yours just has a basic middle grove and four straight cuts/groves with no detail or bend on them. 1 point of many that seperate yours from the 535 gold one) the HJ diamond is also a different one, and shows a very different pattern/stipling.

I guess the only way to tell if is real or not is if you took it off the boy's dead body!

They were not awarded to Boys/children. That would be hard as well, as the storiesyou hear today about Pieces being removed from "dead soldiers" etc, are made up, or at best, could never be confirmed.

I just can not fathom why the GOLDEN HJ HONOUR BADGE WITH OAK LEAVES is found in any other material than gold.

If it`s writen, it is so :closedeyes: although, (but keep it quiet) i`m with you on this one, 100%

 

[Paul Ayerst]

WELL for once I am very concerned with what has been purported to be real here and to have it in writing is of even more concern especially without any factual data to back up the claims just hearsay and speculation so far. There are folks on this forum who possess large amounts of period data and there has been no one come forward to give any history to these odd variations a point which gives me even greater concern.

 

[Jo Rivett]

WELL for once I am very concerned with what has been purported to be real here and to have it in writing is of even more concern especially without any factual data to back up the claims just hearsay and speculation so far. There are folks on this forum who possess large amounts of period data and there has been no one come forward to give any history to these odd variations a point which gives me even greater concern.

Paul, this is why i wanted to have a look at what this book contains before continuing with this thread and doing a few experiments. I have the exact same badge as weitze is selling for €3500.- at the moment, and intend on cutting it up for a look-see

 

[WARLORD]

I read with much interest your points. Possibly the word Jeweller made is not the correct nomenclature, but one that is commonly applied to very professionally made pieces. The first pattern that was shown has the different leave construction. Produced in gold with separate high grade enamel and fixed by two small rivets. This is the form that is shown as awarded and on the citation. Again I state the second form is slightly larger, different leave construction. Separate HJ emblem with no rivets. This form comes in real gold, silver gilt and zink. There are no makers marks, on either type.

As to originality of the pieces well the first could have been made by a Jeweller in any Country in the 1980. But I think this is not the case. A very nice period piece. Lots of provenance.

So as they say you pays your money takes your chances.

 

[Jo Rivett]

But I think this is not the case. A very nice period piece. Lots of prov.

This is why i really need to read your book/info on these before i make my next post, as i dont know what Provenance there is, yet. If it`s anything like the Provenance stories that have been used in the past, and continue to be used to sell/authenticate scarce items, then it should be a giggle.

So as they say you pays your money takes your chances.

No, on a small item that "could be" yes, on Iron Cross`that nobody can really be sure whats original any more, yes or maybe, if you are willing to continually throw pennies away and Hope that the items are real. With High end, scare items like these Oak leafed HJ badges, a comment like..pay the money & take the chance is lunacy and gives some insight already as to what i am expecting to be confronted with in you book. Time will tell, maybe i`m wrong, and look foward to reading the article on them.

 

[WARLORD]

Again thank you for your thoughts. Giggles you may get, individual provenance on an item you won't. Publishers space would not allow. Hopefully clear full colour photos you will. From these one would hope you would get an impression of the pieces. If still unsure then I extend a cordial invitation to visit and inspect the pieces in hand.

The comment, "So as they say you pays your money takes your chances" also is a humorous response and one used by many in the antiques world.

I illustrate this by using the example of the Norwegian Front fighters badge constructed in zink. The story, came back in 1945 by British Airman, vet bring back, don't buy the story buy the piece. In hand looked correct, smelt right, construction OK. Counter from Norwegian experts, remake 1947 for veterans. OK, still holding onto, "you pays your money takes your chances", excellent book comes out, upholds the fact only made in silver. Last year 2010, a researcher found in the Official Norwegian archives an order dated 1945, 1000 pieces made in zink. No the "1947 re-strike" is period and far more rare than the silver pieces.

 

[WARLORD]

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[Jo Rivett]

I should hopefully be getting the book to read in the next few days. Would you mind if i hosted a few scanned pictures of the article(s) on this thread? what with copy writing rules & regs, you never know