It is heavy. Definitely more material there than my Krieges Flagge.
Deutsches Jungvolk DJ flag with WWI design for review
It is heavy. Definitely more material there than my Krieges Flagge.
Thanks for the info, I appreciate the responses. Now that I feel better about the Standarte, he'll get the roll storage and get stacked with the oither flags (I really need a better way of storing these so I can look at them on occasion).
I like it. It is a authentic period item for sure.
I do own some pre HJ youth movement items from the early 1930s.
The fabric, the clips and the repair work looks very similar.
A good catch.
I do own some pre HJ youth movement items from the early 1930s.
The fabric, the clips and the repair work looks very similar.
A good catch.
This is a good sign IMO.
By chance, would anyone have pictures of other early flags? I'm curious about various designs that were used on the reverse.
Ok, this is weird and I'm worried about finding this other flag on the net. The flag has different dimensions than mine they list it as 90x150cm. Here are the pictures they list:
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Yes, that is worrying. The label on the second flag isn't something you'll find on a period flag and the use of the word "Einheit" (unit) instead of Bann, Jungbann etc is atypical. Also, "Hitler Jugend" would have been "Hitler-Jugend" if this label/flag were from the period. The first flag doesn't have the label but now, by implication, it has to be viewed unfavourably. Looks like someone has just had a stab at making a quick buck.
I had a feeling this would taint my flag. Here is the website. HITLER YOUTH LARGE RARE RALLY BANNER – Military collectables for sale
According to their site, they were into the movie regalia business in Eurpoe, but have since moved to California as business has slowed. Now dealing in movie props and militaria. I'm going to call them later to see if I can glean more info, as they may just remember if this copied my flag (I doubt it, but hope), or can remember other variations of their flag (ie mine coming from the same source). I can always return it to Wittman's if all else fails.
Ah, Mr Wittmann... Yes, if I were you I would return the flag. It's clear from his "say what you see" description that he doesn't have a clue what the flag is so it might be helpful to let him know about the second flag with the dodgy label. What he does with that information is anyone's guess but I don't think we've seen the last of the flag.
Haha, they know for a fact that it is on the internet. They saw it, otherwise why even mention it
alteregaliazone(dot)net said:
Haha, they know for a fact that it is on the internet. They saw it, otherwise why even mention it
I'll keep you updated.
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The label with the flag from post 26 must give you the creeps.
Garry gave his comments, so for me no need to do that also.
The one who made the label, has no idea about what the HJ
in fact is or was!
Seeing this, I would be scared also the first shown flag is a
possible "put together" one! If you have some skills and good
materials it is easy to make up all sorts of flags one can think
about!
Garry gave his comments, so for me no need to do that also.
The one who made the label, has no idea about what the HJ
in fact is or was!
Seeing this, I would be scared also the first shown flag is a
possible "put together" one! If you have some skills and good
materials it is easy to make up all sorts of flags one can think
about!
The flag in post 26 really makes me think. The label is so clearly wrong.
I still do like a lot of details in the first flag. If that is a fake too, it is a very good pro job.
Nothing that can be done in a few hours. I would still belive it is an old period flag by looking at it again.
That would also mean this guy has a whole lot of knowledge on how old used flags look after some time in use. That scares me a lot.
He seems not to know much about HJ or TR. At least not as much as others here do.
I still do like a lot of details in the first flag. If that is a fake too, it is a very good pro job.
Nothing that can be done in a few hours. I would still belive it is an old period flag by looking at it again.
That would also mean this guy has a whole lot of knowledge on how old used flags look after some time in use. That scares me a lot.
He seems not to know much about HJ or TR. At least not as much as others here do.
I'm not sure if this will be a fix for my flags reputation...but, if I can convince the guy he is harboring a bad fake, I wouldn't mind buying it on the cheap (no more than $100) to compare to my flag. If the other flag is a new made travesty and the two flags have no construction resemblances, then they may have copied mine. If it is similar in construction, then well..the issue is clear. Or should I just cut my loses and return it?
Yeah
Well, I sent the flag back in the beginning of the week with an explanation of the issue. I received a reply back tonight that he will not honor the return guarantee based just on the issues I presented. I did email him back restating my position in detail. Hope he comes around.
Sorry to hear that..
This seems to be a case of "look, I described what I saw and flags aren't within my area of expertise* so this flag is authentic unless YOU can prove to MY satisfaction that it isn't". Kinda ridiculous but that's the way it often works isn't it.
The problem is obviously being caused by the appearance of that second flag with the stupid label. As you say, you would have to make a side-by-side, in-hand comparison to see whether they are likely to have been made at the same time and in the same way. That's unrealistic though so your only options are to keep a flag which actually nobody really had a problem with here until the second one was shown. Or... in light of the appearance of the second flag, Wittmann shows good will and decent customer service by taking the hit himself. However, I assume that he now knows about that second flag so there may not be much interest in taking a hit - especially as he raised his commission rate by 5% to 30% in January which could be seen as an indication that money is tight..
* "Mr. Wittmann is available to authenticate any dagger, sword, armband, cutlass, or other militaria artifact you wish to send to him; however, keep in mind that his main field of expertise is German and Imperial edged weapons"
This seems to be a case of "look, I described what I saw and flags aren't within my area of expertise* so this flag is authentic unless YOU can prove to MY satisfaction that it isn't". Kinda ridiculous but that's the way it often works isn't it.
The problem is obviously being caused by the appearance of that second flag with the stupid label. As you say, you would have to make a side-by-side, in-hand comparison to see whether they are likely to have been made at the same time and in the same way. That's unrealistic though so your only options are to keep a flag which actually nobody really had a problem with here until the second one was shown. Or... in light of the appearance of the second flag, Wittmann shows good will and decent customer service by taking the hit himself. However, I assume that he now knows about that second flag so there may not be much interest in taking a hit - especially as he raised his commission rate by 5% to 30% in January which could be seen as an indication that money is tight..
* "Mr. Wittmann is available to authenticate any dagger, sword, armband, cutlass, or other militaria artifact you wish to send to him; however, keep in mind that his main field of expertise is German and Imperial edged weapons"
I'm having a little email remorse after yesterday. I was a little heavy on him when I sent the reply. Mind you, I wasn't being a lunatic, I just pointed out things that may question his appraisal/guarantee/and stance. I just pointed out that the only true way to authenticate this flag, short of a direct line to the GI who brought it home, was the material used, as all else were non standard pre 35 items. All a faker needed was period/old materials as he wouldn't have to follow any guidelines as with the latter flags. I said that it was a thin appraisal taking that into account. Couple that with the arrival of the new flag, that it was a bit more worry some than he is taking it. I also mentioned that I lost faith in the Wittmann Guaranttee if everytime he had a item that is being questioned, he sided with his appraisal over collector community views. Lastly I went on to mention the loss of future revenue from me. lol, yes, I was a little braggy, but I made sure he knew how much I have already spent with him, and how much I regularly spend on flags (bought 8 patch flags in the last two months). Was this $1,000 flag worth the loss of my future business.
Hopefully he wasn't insulted. He offered to give me an appraisal letter for it or sell it on commission through him.
That sounds more positive now but either way you lose it would seem. If you consign it he will take 30% of the sale price plus, possibly, a restocking fee for the interim. That's you taking the hit, not him. Even if he waives those fees you will still have to wait, possibly for a very long time, until someone buys the flag so that you get your money back. I wouldn't know but I imagine that his appraisal will be a fluffed-up version of his "say what you see" sales pitch. What use that will be I don't know...
I received a reply to my followup email. Mr. Wittmann agreed to give me a refund. He didn't realize there were forum opinions about the flag that were negative. I'm grateful for this. On a side note, I was able to contact the gentleman who owns the other flag from the movie prop company. He was a bit of a loon. He basically said *** the collector community, what do they know. Besides that, he wasn't receptive to my suggestion that the flag was fake.