Did Otto Hoffmann make Hitler Youth membership badges after all?

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Garry

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It is common knowledge among HJ collectors that any HJ membership badges marked 'Otto Hoffmann' are questionable at the very best. Most of us I think view them as outright copies - particularly the multi-coloured 'sweetshop' type; an example of which can be found here.

The reason usually given is that there was no firm of that name during the TR period but Jo (Metallwarenfabrik) posted an advertisement today which contradicts that common belief. The advertisement shows that Otto Hoffmann was indeed in business during the TR and that he was producing neck scarves and shirts for the Hitler Youth.

Okay, that doesn't help us with the badges though so I'll let Jo continue with what he has.

Over to you Jo :)

NOTE: the intention of this thread is not to show that Hoffmann badges are authentic but rather to discuss the firm of Otto Hoffmann, badges with that MM and to collate examples of them. It is still the opinion of this forum that all red enamel Hoffmann HJ membership badges are post-war fakes and that the orange, green, blue etc Hoffmann badges are fantasies.
 
OK, here we go, hope it makes sense.
Just to be clear, we are not talking about the Purple, green, yellow, black, blue or whatever fantasy color HJ badges there are, they don't have anything to do with the Third Reich, despite the fact that a Dealer called Germania.intl or something like that offers sets of them at every SOS % MAX show with the story that they were for the 1936 Olympics and how he got boxes of them off a vet Decades ago. (pic of the silly ones below)

Look at some facts first.
On this thread, an Assmann marked Arbeiter Jugend badge is mentioned, but nobody has seen one yet, well now you have, this is mine, and the only one i have ever seen as well, but proves that Assmann did make them when he was not allowed too, only Baudermann was as per the RZM regulations.
The Richter Fahnenfabrik catalog i uploaded here, shows that He made them as well when he was not allowed to. I have seen a Badge marked with their company logo, but i sadly have no photos, anyway, the Period catalog is enough proof.
The RZM regulations should also be enough proof of the makers who were making items that they were not supposed to.
So to conclude, it is a proven fact that makers made items with no permission, marked, as is the case with Assmann, or also unmarked as is the case with many Arbeiterjugend badges.

On to the the Diamond shaped Hitlerjugend badge now.
Fact is that early versions marked by Ferdinand Hoffstätter [not that easy to find] and marked by Zeugmeisterei Österreich [even harder to find] are known, so its proven that makers were marking them with their name back in early 1933, and not just with Ges. Gesch or unmarked, as are also encountered, but not often.

Now on to Otto Hoffmann.
Fact is that this company did exist, they also made BDM and HJ items, as well as SA brown-shirts.
Fact is also, as you will see from the Richter Catalog, that makers who made cloth items back in the early days, also made everything else from Enameled badges to flags, hats, posters, Kitsch... etc etc

All we have at the moment on Otto Hoffmann, is that he existed under that name, and made HJ cloth items. Now bear in mind, that old Adverts would never depict everything that that company made, For example we use Hermann Aurich, who, depending on what Catalog, paper etc.. he was advertising in, his advert would read very differently, like.. "Small badge specialist" or "Cooler-Grill specialist" you get the picture i hope? So until someone does more research on Otto Hoffmann, and finds more adverts or info, we cant say if he made badges or not, or even helmets, or silver-wares etc etc, that's a definite possibility and would not surprise in the least. Richter did, others did as we read from old adverts, so why not Otto Hoffmann as well ? Remember, i took this advert from a Uniform magazine, so he would have specifically been advertising his Uniform/Cloth wares in this !

More research, old telephone directories also help out here to see what their main business was, as they usually advertised under that in the local Telephone directory. (for example)

To conclude
Up until now, i have never actually paid Otto Hoffmann badges any attention, basically because of the Multicolored pins that have somehow branded it in my skull that the makers name is automatically associated with fake items. But it would not be a bad idea to group all the Red HJ Hoffmann marked badges together for future research, as the possibility that he made a few in 1933 and marked them Otto Hoffmann can not be 100% ruled out just because of the Multicolored pins.

The Otto Hoffmann advert is taken from a 1939 Uniform-Markt. The Assmann badge is mine, and the Multicolored pins i stole from ioffer.

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Here is a Prime example of what i am referring to, a Richter Advert also in the Uniform-Markt, showing only his Woven and cloth items, when we know by looking through his Catalog that he made much much more, including medals and badges.
Also, another Otto Hoffmann advert.

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Good stuff Jo. This is the kind of thing I love. Right. Let's see how many red/white Hoffmans we can get together for an identity parade :001_cool:




One of the funniest things I ever had to do actually.. I was in London in 81 or 82, can't remember exactly when but I was just kinda standing there when the cops pulled up next to me and asked if I wouldn't mind taking part in an identity parade down the nick. Yep, I said, expecting a lift. 'Ok thanks', said the copper 'the nick is in xxxxx street. Better to take a taxi'. Oh great.. Anyway, I turned up at the nick and ended up in a room with a few other guys who looked a little like me, roughly the same height and age etc. Eventually the hand-cuffed criminal is brought in. I'm 6 feet tall and was 19/20 at the time as was everyone else in the line-up so when the 5'5" (and clearly a lot older) criminal sees us he realises that things may not go in his favour :) They didn't of course and he was identified instantly by the old lady he'd robbed :)

Sorry. Right, back to Hoffmann!
 
Been picked up plenty of times myself, in many countries, But never to stand in a line-up, always to stay overnight, free food & lodgings :lol:
From a quick search, it seems that there are two kinds of reverse designs for the red ones, Bad, and very bad :bounce:
Pictures below of three Red HJ Reverses, none of which look even half-right.

On every Forum i have checked so far, the Vote is unanimous, Otto Hoffmann is a Fantasy name, therefor fantasy badges :sad:
Well half of that is at least proved wrong now, lets see what time and many more pictures can do.

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From Beck's:

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very interesting, definetly needs more research, what i have noticed over the yrs is that the maker mark and the reverse in general on all the otto badges are very similar if its red or yellow etc.
but in saying that i have said before on other forums that if the multi-coloured badges never excisted then the red badge would be the best fake there is of these badges ( if that is the case now )
 
Stuart, how ever this research turns out, it should be a lesson to us all, to Never, say NEVER. Something i am guilty of myself over the years :biggrin1:
my opinion? No way could a Faker dream this up, they aint that bright. There would be many more Fantasy names if this was the case, and we now know, Otto Hoffman can be connected to making HJ items, and he was real.. more research indeed.
 
to many opinions in this game are formulated from hearsay, and from the experianced collectors!!!!!!!!!, easy to wrack up 3000+ posts on waf and pretend to be an expert , but if you talk loud enough people will believe the crap and eventually spread the word.

jo its good to see after all these yrs things like this can still be discovered
 
So, this means, another myth is gone?

I always thought this was a “fantasy” maker. I really read so much about how “fake” this “fakes” are.

And suddenly, just about to open a lovely beer, I read about this. Obviously, if I can help you with anything, I will be more than happy to do it.

Well done guys, very well done.

Regards

Antonio
 
Yes, it means we know Otto Hoffman did exist, and we can connect him to making BDM, DJ and HJ items. All that is left now, is to connect him somehow to making Metalleffekten, Abzeichen, Flag pole tops, Jewelery or anything metal.
Nothing better than a few period facts to blow years of repetitive sheep-following-sheep posting out of the water.
 
Talking about the early fully maker-marked HJ pins, I've only came across one Hoffstätter. The pin is a bit lose because the lettering -in high relief- avoid a tight soldering of the pin plate. I keep an eye on other makers but they seem to be very rare.

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Wim Vangossum said:
Talking about the early full maker marked HJ pins, I've only came across one Hoffstätter. The pin is a bit lose because the lettering -in high relief- avoid a tight soldering of the pin plate. I keep an eye on other makers but they seem to be very rare.
Click to expand...
Wim, i sold one of those last week on this Forum. (see sales thread)
Aaaaand Wim, no comment on Otto Hoffmann ?
 
Metallwarenfabrik said:
Wim, i sold one of those last week on this Forum. (see sales thread)
Aaaaand Wim, no comment on Otto Hoffmann ?
Click to expand...

Jo, if you found traces that Otto Hoffmann made these badges, I have no problem to believe you. Then it is time to make a comparising and to find out which examples could be real, and which examples are close family from the horrible colored buggers. Do you already came across a believable candidate? And how do we read the range of full maker marked early HJ pins? Hoffstätter, Zeugmeisterei Österreich and Hofmann. Are there other makers? Personnaly I only saw Hoffstätter's and (good or bad) "Hofmann's".



Regards, Wim
 
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Hi Wim, Nope, you also saw Zeugmeisterei HJ badges :good: At this stage, all is proved is that there was a HJ maker called Otto Hoffmann, which is what everybody, until yesterday did not believe. You can read it all over the web, Fantasy name, no such maker..etc....
So all this thread is, is the Eye-opener, and will hopefully encourage more research. As it certainly looks like more research is needed.
We don't know if he made metal items yet, but we do know, he is not a Fantasy name:w00t: & that is a very good first step.
 
Also positive is that as far as I know there are no old stories about these badges. No one seems to have a story about some dodgy dealer having a few hundred made in the 60s for example. There seem to be no rumours - just the 'Hoffmann didn't exist' argument.
 
Lending some more weight to this, are the Multicolored Rainbow pins marked Hoffmann.
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The Female NSKK Drivers badges, that did exist, but should be considered very rare, are available in every color under the sun now, a Genuine badge though is seen so seldom, that the majority of collectors don't know what a good one looks like.
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The Hungarian Volksbund badges are even rarer, the did exist though, and they too are available in multi colors.
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The Ludendorff, von Graefe 1924 NSFP badges, which are rarer than teeth on a Leprechaun are also available in colors.
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What about the Foreign HJ badge we have just be talking about? that too, is available in colors.

Sure the HJ badge also existed and is not really a rare item, but i just don't see how or why a faker could come up with the name Otto Hoffmann on these just like that.
You might think that it could just be coincidence, or even a cruel joke, But do we have other HJ fake badges with fantasy names on them? No we don't, in fact, finding any TR item with a fantasy name on it will be a hard thing. (I don't mean Non-German names like the Fake Prag maker on the Fantasy Böhmen & Mähren Sympathy badge, on the Hungarian name on the Fake red Hungarian pin)
If this, using Fantasy names on Fakes was a normal thing, or even common practice, then we would surely have seen more of it?

It would be grand if we could connect Otto Hoffmann somehow to making, or even advertising any metal object :001_smile:
 
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