DJ Early and Bevo Runes and others

[mkholst]

Hi Garry,

I thought I had it all figured out, but now I’m a bit confused by your list of colors.
Where does the badge I pictured in post 8 (red on green) fit in?

Michael

PS - thanks for the scans

 

[Garry]

Hi Garry,

I thought I had it all figured out, but now I’m a bit confused by your list of colors.
Where does the badge I pictured in post 8 (red on green) fit in?

Michael

PS - thanks for the scans

Yes, that combination of red/green is not shown among the colour combinations. It's also not a Länderfarbe (used by the HJ for the Kameradschaftführer lanyard in 1933 for example). Not sure what to make of the patch but if it is of period construction etc then there will have been a reason for the colours that isn't covered by the sources we have.

Edit to add more on who actually wore these sleeve runes in the Gau colours:

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This all changed a few months later of course when the uniforms were all standardised and the Oberbann colours were introduced.

 

[Garry]

Just going back to odd colour combinations... In August 1933. after the new Oberbann DJ sleeve patches had been introduced, the Jungbannführer of Harburg-Wilhelmsburg ordered that the changeover to the new patches would begin after the Reichsparteitag in Nürnberg. For an upcoming Gebietstreffen he stated that all Jungvolk Pimpfe were to wear the Siegrune patch "in the old colours". He says that the old colours were yellow rune on black. This is an SA combination which would correspond to Hannover-Süd or Hannover-Ost because none of the later HJ-Gruppen colours were yellow on black. Harburg-Wilhelmsburg is just south of Hamburg though so none of this applies... I don't think for a second that Jungbannführer was confused about the colours but I certainly am....

 

[mkholst]

Hi Garry

I'm still confused .

In post 16 you wrote;

“Hi Michael,
You are correct on the colours used for the very early rune patches. Here's an excerpt from the book "Aufbau Abzeichen NSDAP" from 1933. It contains a mixture of information from 1932 and 33 as follows:

"...am linken Oberarm wird das Jungvolkabzeichen in den Gauspiegelfarben der SA getragen". the patch shown is a roundel with Sigrune, no tan backing.”

So I thought everything was as it should be, but then post 20 appeared with a completely different color overview—where did that color overview come from?

Michael

 

[Garry]

It is confusing Do you have Wim's book? He lists the Gaufarben (SA) and the HJ-Gruppe colours that came after them. The problem is that it is unclear for the Jungvolk whether "Red/white" means "red rune on white" or "white rune on red". I would think that the rune colour would be the same as the colour used for the numbers on the SA collar patches. However, I can't be sure. I will post a definitive list of the colours as soon as I get my hands on the SA orders that show them and the colours for the HJ-Gruppen. With a little luck that should happen next week some time.

 

[mkholst]

Hi Garry,

I’m eagerly awaiting your next post.

I have Wim’s handbook—on which page are the colors listed?

In the meantime, I’ve looked at the early badges pictured on our forum—and almost all of them match the SA colors 100%: disc color = collar patch color; Siegrune color = number color.

I’ve used the abbreviations from my summary in post 15. After this review, I am very certain that the previously mentioned statement is correct:
"..am linken Oberarm wird das Jungvolkabzeichen in den Gauspiegelfarben der SA getragen"

Michael

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B

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FR

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GB

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HD

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HNS

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HO

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NM

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OM

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Rh.S

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S

 

[Garry]

Hi Garry,

I’m eagerly awaiting your next post.

I have Wim’s handbook—on which page are the colors listed?

In the meantime, I’ve looked at the early badges pictured on our forum—and almost all of them match the SA colors 100%: disc color = collar patch color; Siegrune color = number color.

I’ve used the abbreviations from my summary in post 15. After this review, I am very certain that the previously mentioned statement is correct:
"..am linken Oberarm wird das Jungvolkabzeichen in den Gauspiegelfarben der SA getragen"

Michael

It starts on p634 Michael. Yes, that statement is definitely true. I also think you're right about which colour was for the rune and which for the base patch. Putting all of the various colours into a nice little table will be very useful. 1931/32 for the SA colours, 1932/33 for the HJ-Gruppen colours and then the Oberbann colours that replaced everything.

 

[Garry]

Working on this currently Michael. I haven't finished entering the data but you can test it out:

DJ Sleeve patch and rune colours

Identify early DJ sleeve patches from the era 1931-1933 (SA command and later the HJ-Gruppen)

www.hj-research.com

Have I entered the colours of the rune and patch correctly so far? Use the script and enter yellow in the rune colour field for example and it will spit out all areas that used it and when. If you're happy I will go ahead and enter the rest of the data.

 

[mkholst]

Hi Garry
I tried - but got this answer: You do not have permission to view this page or perform this action.

 

[Garry]

Should be working now Michael.

 

[mkholst]

Working now - excellent - I am happy - keep up the god work

I look forward to seeing the finished result.

 

[Garry]

All of the data is now in the list Michael. Try it out

 

[mkholst]

Quick try - I am missing SA colors as follows

Hessen-Darmstadt

HD

blue

white

München-Oberbayern

MO

blue

white

Oberpfalz-Niederbayern

ON

blue

white

Schwaben

SB

blue

white

I’ll be away for several hours now—going for a walk with some friends, and then we’re visiting our son and daughter-in-law—but once I have time again, I’ll look through everything.

Nice work Garry - you will hear from me again

Michael

 

[mkholst]

Hi Garry

I’ve gone through everything now. Regarding the SA colors, I had mixed up black and white for Danzig and East Prussia, but I’m certain that what you’ve entered into the chart is absolutely correct.

So, all that remains is to add the 4 SA blue/white from my post 33.

Thanks for the great collaboration; I think that, together, we’ve "cracked the code" regarding the colors of the early DJ rune patches .

Michael

 

[Garry]

Michael,

What is the year for the list that you posted earlier?

DJ Early and Bevo Runes and others | DJ rune patches and DJ leader rune patches

Good morning from sunny Scotland, Well really it s pouring of rain lol. But I am having a good week, and with the help of Bert159 many thanks again, I managed to increase my early DJ rune collection. See the photo below of my DJ early runes plus others and my Bevo runes. Enjoy. I truly enjoy...

www.hj-research.com

Hessen-Darmstadt is in the tool in HJ-Gruppe West but not with your colours. München and Oberbayern are also in the tool but they belonged to different HJ-Gruppen. Oberpfalz-Niederbayern is not there but Oberpfalz and Niederbayern are listed seperately in HJ-Gruppe Süd. Schwaben is also listed in HJ-Gruppe Süd.

I'll do a revision on the tool so that there is a button where you can select a HJ-Gruppe or a location (München etc) to see the colours used.

 

[mkholst]

My list of SA colors in post 15 is from 1931.

I also have a SA list from early 1933, but the colors are different—more like the ones SA used later on.

 

[Garry]

I have updated the tool so that you can now search for HJ-Gruppe and location.