Gausieger 1944 Detailed Examination
- Thread starter Jo Rivett
- Start date
Excellent. Really looking forward to seeing these badges under the spotlight.
How about the zinc HJ shooting badges and the zinc HJ Honour badges Jo? Would be great to see analysis of those in the future.
How about the zinc HJ shooting badges and the zinc HJ Honour badges Jo? Would be great to see analysis of those in the future.
Myself as well .... those 44's are a minefield.
Well I just take what comes in, and the guy on this thread contacted me and wants to send me his badge to "have a better look at."
Not really an item I have ever had or been interested in, but why not. Did at first think "aaaah, not more zinc
garden variety crap-o-la" because I know that I had seen these posted and discussed many times. But going back through the old posts here quickly, saw that there was in fact, nothing definite at all.Not saying that this one being sent to me is going to suddenly turn out to be genuine, in all likelyhood it won`t, and if going on what`s been said here many times, It is not, but what a closer look will do, is reveal a few detailed places to look at. Like the recent supposed French-made Bacqueville awards, collectors and dealers and authors going ape over them for the last 40 years, and now that a few have been looked at in detail, we have a much better idea of what detailed images are needed in order to be 100% if the badge for sale today, claimed to be "die struck, great, etc.." really is or not. Like I exaplined at the end of the second bacquville video.. just ask dealer A,B or C for a detailed image of the U-Boot birds wing - for example - to make sure it is not cast as the one I "exposed" is/was. That`s all.
And in todays age, great camera`s are cheap, hell you can even take nice large images with the iPhones (or whatever you call those horrible things.)
So there can be no reason why any dealer would not be able to show the interested customer a much better image of a certain area - after that area has been detailed in a micro video.
Very true. There really isn't anything unequivocal on these 1944 zinc badges yet. What I said here (bad badges apparently have a small mutant feather on the bird's right shoulder) is something that, I think, came from Don Scowen who was the "go to" guy for info on fake vs good back when I bought my first 1944. As far as I know, he shared a lot of his findings with Stuart who, in time, also became a "go to". Both of them are honest, decent guys in my experience and I never had any reason to doubt them but as with many, many collectibles there is of course always the feeling that this is "just" someone's opinion at the end of the day so getting the microscope in there will hopefully reveal detail that can bring us closer to resolution on these badges.
Yes, if we can find something "shocking" then in future all people will need to do is request a larger image of "whatever area" to be sure if it is the same as the one shown in the videos.
That won`t stop dealer selling them of course, and it won`t stop those who own them or need them to be real, to just brush whatever shocking findings aside with - as we always see - "Oh well if the videos show they are horribly cast, then that`s perfectly fine, because things were just horribly cast back them anyway because someone told me that" but it will help collectors with more than cotton wool between their ears, or collectors who are not bound to any reputations or narrative.
The reasoning, I guess, on my part anyway, is to reduce it all to a simple "compare" as we have been doing so far, but for all the right reasons. So when we say "ask for detailed images of XxX area" it will be to see/prove if the item in question is correctly produced or not.
This is a stumbling block that has taken me a while to get over, but I have, and now could not give two ***** what anyone wishes to say or claim. Certain items were produced in a certain way, and that is documented, that is proven, that is a fact! So the results that I am coming up with are conclusive, regarless of the incomming flak afterwards. In years, decades to come, it will be me who goes down as the genuinly honest, knowledgable, helpful collector who was right. And not this huge sinking ship of dirty rats and tag-alongs.
I believe the last two videos of mine about the supposed French-made awards say it all. Over 40 years of collectors guides to, over 40 years of Ra Ra, dealers opinions and websites full of them, and over 40 years of nice fables, all blasted out of the water by taking a simple detailled look at the items. You.. or we, can do this with any item.
The tag-alongs shall stay onboard their ship, and if they manage to recruit likeminded collectors who can`t see the ship is sinking, so be it, it is not up to me to save anyone who does not wish to be saved.
Hell, that last part makes me sound like a preacher
but it`s true. And when it comes to places like the WAF, well, as I will show in the next video, many of them there, wait for this, believe that a membership badge, poorly cast in L E A D - yes I just said lead - is perfectly fine, and indeed was the way these items were sometimes made. 
So deatiled research and factual evidence will always only apply to a small group of collectors, and never to the whole. As a huge portion of collectors are already onboard that ship, and others are queing up to get their boarding tickets.You're right Jo. You need to just plough on and let Mundpropaganda do the work. It will take time but the die-hards will eventually run out of people to talk to/convert. There is a danger, as you say, that those who own outed fakes already will attempt to bury discussion or deflect it but all that is needed on any future threads is for someone to link to the appropriate Youtube clip. Information passed again, job done but whatever happens, the desirability of the things you expose will drop like Budd Dwyer. Nobody likes to be kicked in the wallet no matter how much they say that they are in it for "the history". The only thing that might scupper you is if Youtube decides at some point not to show your clips due to "complaints" from "concerned citizens" wink wink but I'm sure you've already thought about that.
Keep it up mate, the fruits of your labours are here and more are sure to come. Really looking forward to the next Sodcast
Keep it up mate, the fruits of your labours are here and more are sure to come. Really looking forward to the next Sodcast
Yep, good to see. Diehards should check this out:
Confirmation Bias
The same thing happens with militaria of course. Subjective experience says "vet buy", "motel buy", "I got mine directly from the veteran" and "all the big dealers like them". Be it stubbornness or not wanting to take a hit, or wanting to keep a militaria business constantly stocked with supplies, some will never acknowledge what should be the common aim.
ha ha ha, the WOFF...indeed. it does sound like I`m saying that, but the reality is that I am trying to take the peas out of a few Americans who pronounce it that way, like they do Luftwoffa, or Woffen SS... he he he, not that ALL Americans do, mind you, perish the thought, Americans are good, and America is good, hate to have any Americans think I`m taking the peas out of them in general now, heavens no, it`s just a WAaaaaaaaaf thing, or a WOFF thing.
Cool. I made it onto the video with that post of mine from 2009 
Yes, this is the type of 44 with the mutant shoulder feather, or rather chest feather, that most don't like. It can be seen at 17:12 at the extreme top left of the bird's chest as we look at it. The images are fantastic and as you say and show throughout the vid, no doubt whatsoever that this version is indeed a fake.
I bought one of these mutants from Hüsken or Weitze back in 2006/7 if I remember correctly. I sent it back after it got panned on WAF and later bought one of the "accepted" versions from Viktor Gross complete with a case (for a different badge). That particular badge had a great look (see below) but what always bugged me a little about this badge was the little spot of red paint on the wing. You can clearly see it in one of the pics in the midde of the wing above the number 9. It bugged me so much that I removed it in Photoshop as you can see on pic 1 below. Great looking badge. polished and bright with great (naked eye) detail but that dot of paint did bug me. Was this another fake? Based on its appearance and positive feedback (I know, I know..) I decided that it wasn't but as I say, getting that version of the 44 under the scope would be really useful. I would send you mine of course but I sold it back in 2008/9 to Stuart. Where it went from there I don't know.
PS Great to see the return of the welcome message!
Yes, this is the type of 44 with the mutant shoulder feather, or rather chest feather, that most don't like. It can be seen at 17:12 at the extreme top left of the bird's chest as we look at it. The images are fantastic and as you say and show throughout the vid, no doubt whatsoever that this version is indeed a fake. I bought one of these mutants from Hüsken or Weitze back in 2006/7 if I remember correctly. I sent it back after it got panned on WAF and later bought one of the "accepted" versions from Viktor Gross complete with a case (for a different badge). That particular badge had a great look (see below) but what always bugged me a little about this badge was the little spot of red paint on the wing. You can clearly see it in one of the pics in the midde of the wing above the number 9. It bugged me so much that I removed it in Photoshop as you can see on pic 1 below. Great looking badge. polished and bright with great (naked eye) detail but that dot of paint did bug me. Was this another fake? Based on its appearance and positive feedback (I know, I know..
) I decided that it wasn't but as I say, getting that version of the 44 under the scope would be really useful. I would send you mine of course but I sold it back in 2008/9 to Stuart. Where it went from there I don't know.
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PS Great to see the return of the welcome message!
Well what I thought of ending off with, was something similar to the previous videos, with a few pointers as to what to look for. NO, not a feather or a shoulder 
, remember these (genuine) badges are zinc, and zinc can deform at the slightest fart, so if there happened to be wear and tear or a "rim tap" (or corrosion) on the part you were supposed to be looking at - strike that - on the part that the go-to men have told you to go to, then what else would you use?
I would also be turning myself into a go-to man on these, just a more modern, micro-assisted go-to man, because sad facts are that many collectors are not interested, and only want the quick guide. They want something like a "look at the shoulder, if it looks like X, that means stay away, if it look slike Y, that means it is genuine".
And so while playing around with those innitial thoughts, I gathered a few examples of these from the web and forums. I have only examined the one in the videos, but what is crystal clear, is that there are quite a few versions of these, and not just a cast fake and a die-struck good one.
What`s also clear just from the images, is that the majority of them cannot be real.
There are a few reasons why, common sense plays a major part, but as you`ve just seen with this video, it really is this easy to fool collectors. I did not read anything about these fakes being CAST, anywhere? And like it or not - I know some collectors do still cling onto the hope that some awards and membership badges were cast - being CAST, means automatically that an item like this cannot possibly be genuine. And you can see it is poorly cast with a magnifying glass, even if you did not understand anything about machine milling.
So instead of saying anything, I just left it. I don`t collect these, I don`t care, and I have just proved that noone has ever looked at (even) one of these cast fakes in detail, so it stands to reason then, that they have also not looked at any of the so-called genuine ones either.
The few dealers who are asking 200-300 squid for the fake, will still be selling them in years to come, there are still going to be people who even after seeing how the fake is made, will cling to it being genuine (hence me adding the CAST LEAD pin on WAF into this video - just to prove my point) so what would be the point to just Ra Ra on about the others?
To show the mess? No need, the whole hobby is a mess.
So hopefully I ended that video the right way, leaving collectors with a nice warm feeling, that it was only until very recently, when a clever cloggs came along and decided to machine-mill his own dies for these so he could cast copies of a single-piece badge. And that the zinc Gausieger 1944 remained untouched for the first 60-odd years, while everything else around them was being faked, including complicated multi-piece items.
, remember these (genuine) badges are zinc, and zinc can deform at the slightest fart, so if there happened to be wear and tear or a "rim tap" (or corrosion) on the part you were supposed to be looking at - strike that - on the part that the go-to men have told you to go to, then what else would you use?I would also be turning myself into a go-to man on these, just a more modern, micro-assisted go-to man, because sad facts are that many collectors are not interested, and only want the quick guide. They want something like a "look at the shoulder, if it looks like X, that means stay away, if it look slike Y, that means it is genuine".
And so while playing around with those innitial thoughts, I gathered a few examples of these from the web and forums. I have only examined the one in the videos, but what is crystal clear, is that there are quite a few versions of these, and not just a cast fake and a die-struck good one.
What`s also clear just from the images, is that the majority of them cannot be real.
There are a few reasons why, common sense plays a major part, but as you`ve just seen with this video, it really is this easy to fool collectors. I did not read anything about these fakes being CAST, anywhere? And like it or not - I know some collectors do still cling onto the hope that some awards and membership badges were cast
- being CAST, means automatically that an item like this cannot possibly be genuine. And you can see it is poorly cast with a magnifying glass, even if you did not understand anything about machine milling.So instead of saying anything, I just left it. I don`t collect these, I don`t care, and I have just proved that noone has ever looked at (even) one of these cast fakes in detail, so it stands to reason then, that they have also not looked at any of the so-called genuine ones either.
The few dealers who are asking 200-300 squid for the fake, will still be selling them in years to come, there are still going to be people who even after seeing how the fake is made, will cling to it being genuine (hence me adding the CAST LEAD pin on WAF into this video - just to prove my point) so what would be the point to just Ra Ra on about the others?
To show the mess? No need, the whole hobby is a mess.
So hopefully I ended that video the right way, leaving collectors with a nice warm feeling, that it was only until very recently, when a clever cloggs came along and decided to machine-mill his own dies for these so he could cast copies of a single-piece badge. And that the zinc Gausieger 1944 remained untouched for the first 60-odd years, while everything else around them was being faked, including complicated multi-piece items.
Sure but over the years I've seen multiples of the 44 that have that mutant feather so it isn't just a ding or a scratch in soft metal. The great thing is that you have now proven that an example of such a badge is definitely fake so for those who don't have a microscope I think that the mutant feather now has much, much more significance than it previously had. Seeing those milling marks was incredible by the way.
No, I don't recall any threads from the past on the forums about these being cast either. In my recollection it was usually just observed features like "19 feathers", what I called the "mutant feather", "wing tips" or "berries at 12 o'clock" or something else. Of course, this all implies that an authentic badge is acting as the reference but then we start to ask ourselves how they know that the reference badge is good. Vet buy? Motel buy? Got it from the veteran's family /original recipient? And... we're back where we started. Unless... more collectors begin to get in close with a microscope as you have done. It's the only way to effect change.
No, I don't recall any threads from the past on the forums about these being cast either. In my recollection it was usually just observed features like "19 feathers", what I called the "mutant feather", "wing tips" or "berries at 12 o'clock" or something else. Of course, this all implies that an authentic badge is acting as the reference but then we start to ask ourselves how they know that the reference badge is good. Vet buy? Motel buy? Got it from the veteran's family /original recipient? And... we're back where we started. Unless... more collectors begin to get in close with a microscope as you have done. It's the only way to effect change.
I do see where you are coming from, and of course we can`t be expected to subject each and every item to a micro exam over and over, there will need to be "things" that we can jot down, so as to be able to recognize the same (already inspected) cast fakes just from quick internet image comparisons, I am 100% with you there. BUT... only really after you are 100% sure what is fake, and what is genuine. 
With these, all we have done so far, is expose one modern cast Gausieger 44 fake, there are more. I have seen them.
Keep in mind, the dies for this fake were machine milled, the design was virtual and was sent to a milling machine, there was no original taken and had a cast copy made of, hence the slight variations in slogan size, legs etc... The normal way an oldish cast fake is made, is that an original is used to create the molds for the cast. So the "next" fakes of these you will be looking for, will be identical copies of the genuine.
With these, all we have done so far, is expose one modern cast Gausieger 44 fake, there are more. I have seen them.
Keep in mind, the dies for this fake were machine milled, the design was virtual and was sent to a milling machine, there was no original taken and had a cast copy made of, hence the slight variations in slogan size, legs etc... The normal way an oldish cast fake is made, is that an original is used to create the molds for the cast. So the "next" fakes of these you will be looking for, will be identical copies of the genuine.
Would be interesting to see what others have to say about these two examples.
If these two are supposed to be genuine, what makes them genuine?
They are obviously different to the clear cast fake I just reviewed.....
A Victors Badge in the National Trade Competition by Gustav Brehmer
A Victors Badge in the National Trade Competition, by Gustav Brehmer
If these two are supposed to be genuine, what makes them genuine?
They are obviously different to the clear cast fake I just reviewed.....
A Victors Badge in the National Trade Competition by Gustav Brehmer
A Victors Badge in the National Trade Competition, by Gustav Brehmer
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This is an interesting thread and thank you thank you Jo for analyzing that badge. I believe what Garry says is perhaps true that these things like shoulder feather and other things he said have become "standard" and if a badge does not have the "bad" characteristic then by deduction it must be good. Something that I always would like to know is if the striations? those dark lines you see on the second badge on the gear wheel are a good sign. The badge that you analyzed in your video dies not have and it looks rough but other 44 badges have those dark lines on the back of the badge more noticeably. This type looks like higher quality production.
One other question, do we know for sure that Gausieger got a badge in 1944? Or even the Reichssieger? Garry said in his article that it was decentralised and there was no final competition like in 1934-1939 so if they did not come together in one place maybe no badges? I think there were badges but if anyone can prove if they did get them?
One other question, do we know for sure that Gausieger got a badge in 1944? Or even the Reichssieger? Garry said in his article that it was decentralised and there was no final competition like in 1934-1939 so if they did not come together in one place maybe no badges? I think there were badges but if anyone can prove if they did get them?
Some of them look like even worse production to the fake in the video.
A Victors Badge in the National Trade Competition by Gustav Brehmer
I don`t know about the 1944 badge, I assumed that people had already written articles and books about them, and covered the history, so did not even bother to check up about the historical context. It was also not really important when just reviewing one fake.
Hi guys,
nice video with great pictures and a lot of work..... But why do you think the two Gausieger badges of eMedals are not good. From my point of view they are original. And yes there were final competitions in 1944. There was a ceremony in Dresden, too. 373 winners were awarded.
Kr Markus
nice video with great pictures and a lot of work..... But why do you think the two Gausieger badges of eMedals are not good. From my point of view they are original. And yes there were final competitions in 1944. There was a ceremony in Dresden, too. 373 winners were awarded.
Kr Markus
Actually there was more than one award ceremony in 1944 but yes, 373 Reichssieger seems legit. The question asked by Trommeller is a good one I reckon because although we know that award ceremonies took place that alone doesn't answer the question of whether badges were awarded too and especially so at the Gausieger level. I have always assumed yes, of course badges were awarded but I wouldn't be able to provide proof for that.