Gausieger 1944 Detailed Examination
- Thread starter Jo Rivett
- Start date
Why do you think they are good, that was the question. I already know why one of them is a cast fake, the eMedals images show it clearly.
I never looked into details, but if we are looking at 400-odd, then how can there possibly be so many found online right now in 2018? only about 400-odd, would make this an EXCEPTIONALLY rare item indeed.
I know of other items where at least a thousand or more were made, and you will only see one of them every ten years at best, and never find any on the net.
Obviously that`s no rule of thumb comparison, just saying.
So back to why you think they are good.
Does it have anything to do with "a mutant feather" - or not? :swiss just a guess, hope I am wrong.
Information that they were actually presented? Information that pertains directly to the 1944 Gausiegerabz. ? Special information that cannot be shared for free?
Yes, and he says in his book is more information, so hopefully he will be back to share some.
Does anyone here have his book? I would be interested to know what info accompanies the badges shown as good? Or is it more about info just with "accepted versions" as good and no more info on the actual badges?
I don't have his book but looking through his small number of posts on the forum he certainly hasn't shared anything substantial in the past despite being apparently knowledgeable on the subject. one of the reasons I bought your book Jo was because you were always willing to share your knowledge both before and after publishing.
I guess there is no "must" to expand on anything, and from the few pages he posted, it looks to me like it is just a brief covering of what the badges are about, dates and events and the history, with probably just a version of each shown and assumed genuine.
No problem there, as most books and articles are just that, but it would be great for me to understand WHY he assumes both eMedal awards are genuine? That was how I phrased my innitial request post.
Not only do I expand on why I think something is fake or real, but I can and do show exactly why in videos. Still, it would help me understand a bit more how fakes keep on getting listed for sale, as well as how "anything" just appears in articles and books over and over.
Is it just because brief research is done, and the majority accepted vote is taken as law and published (again and again) as such? Or do people who say "Yes, that`s genuine" or "They look genuine to me" have anything to add as to WHY they feel that way?
It is very unfair to wangle out of answering that and just put the ownace on the perosn who says something else. Surely in order for you to feel that something is good (or even bad) there must be a reason? And that`s what I am after, the reason WHY "you" feel something is genuine.
For my salt, and I also point the finger at myself here as we are all guilty of the same "crime" of just running with a long accepted "vote", I believe there is nothing else accept the general consensus. But if there was, then I`d love to hear what it is exactly that people are using to judge authenticity?
Judging a fake is easier, as you would have odditites to point to, clearly casted edges, or a horrible attachment etc etc, but with a genuine item, what is it exactly that collectors are looking at?
No problem there, as most books and articles are just that, but it would be great for me to understand WHY he assumes both eMedal awards are genuine? That was how I phrased my innitial request post.
Not only do I expand on why I think something is fake or real, but I can and do show exactly why in videos. Still, it would help me understand a bit more how fakes keep on getting listed for sale, as well as how "anything" just appears in articles and books over and over.
Is it just because brief research is done, and the majority accepted vote is taken as law and published (again and again) as such? Or do people who say "Yes, that`s genuine" or "They look genuine to me" have anything to add as to WHY they feel that way?
It is very unfair to wangle out of answering that and just put the ownace on the perosn who says something else. Surely in order for you to feel that something is good (or even bad) there must be a reason? And that`s what I am after, the reason WHY "you" feel something is genuine.
For my salt, and I also point the finger at myself here as we are all guilty of the same "crime" of just running with a long accepted "vote", I believe there is nothing else accept the general consensus. But if there was, then I`d love to hear what it is exactly that people are using to judge authenticity?
Judging a fake is easier, as you would have odditites to point to, clearly casted edges, or a horrible attachment etc etc, but with a genuine item, what is it exactly that collectors are looking at?
[FONT="]Hi,[/FONT]
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[FONT="]Well, from my point of view it is more important to know the originals as the reproductions. Originals do not change, reproduction do. So, I did not write anything about copies. Concerning the national trade competition, there are not really good repros in the market. [/FONT]
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[FONT="]And nothing in life is for free, even death is not. It costs life. [/FONT]
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[FONT="]Kr Markus
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[FONT="]Well, from my point of view it is more important to know the originals as the reproductions. Originals do not change, reproduction do. So, I did not write anything about copies. Concerning the national trade competition, there are not really good repros in the market. [/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="]And nothing in life is for free, even death is not. It costs life. [/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="]Kr Markus
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Why are you onthis forum then? There are people here who contribute information direct from the original orders and regulations, from original books and pamphlets that they have in their collections, show their stuff all of which costs a lot of money. What have you contributed apart from advertising your book?
Sorry for that. You do not know me. Otherwise you know, everybody can get help from me (for free). ;-) You make a decision based on the number of topics or comments I have. I am not very often here. Yes, that is right. But I am only interested in the national trade competition. Other HJ topics are not so interesting for me. Sorry for that. And for your information. Creating a book is a lot of work, time and it costs a lot of money, with the risk that nobody want it.
But back to the topic. Why do you think the two badges are fakes?
But back to the topic. Why do you think the two badges are fakes?
Well, you have been allowed to do free advertising for your book on this forum without paying a cent to become a member, you have allowed yourself a few questions and recieved answers as well, and, so far at least, you have contributed nothing at all here, so I for one do not appreciate your reply.
I have also written a few books myself, and been willing to help anyone who has questions or seeks further information. I have never charged anyone anything and never simply said:
Refer to my book for the info you want. In fact I will go one further, I have been producing detailed videos that cost an extreme amount of time and money to produce, all for free, for a few years as well.
Not only that, but all the articles I have written for collectors magazines, were for free. All the articles written on my site and forum, are for free.
"Nothing is for free" is about the most pathetic excuse I have heard so far, especially from a non-contributing member.
I have only ever heard this kind of crap from people like Christopher Ailsby before, and when I took his advice and bought his book, in which he promised me more information as you have, I found the opposite - nothing!
You are also, again, dodging my question. If it is more important for you to know the originals, then you can surely share a few pointers on what you use to judge the originals, no?
When you (or anyone for that matter) simply says "You thought they were good, or you think this or that is good." what are you judging?
Answering simply questions like this, is helpful to other collectors. People who act as if there is some special knowledge or info that they cannot share with other like-minded collectors, I have found at least, are usually those with the least amount of knowledge! I do hope you will prove me wrong, and maybe even start earning your advertisment space on this forum, which is, dedicated to helping collectors.
Nonsense!
This is no excuse. I paid the printing costs even for the 2013 The Party Badge book, an amount upfront of five figures! And have self-financed every book i wrote since that.
And yet I have been willing to help for free ever since it was released. And help for free with anything pertaining to any other book.
And no, not back to why anyone thinks they are fake, back to the innitial question: What are you judging? Why do you say the two awards sold on eMedals are good? because you did say that, so it would be nice for you to explain why.
It should not be hard to do this, seeing as you have just written - and researched I guess - a book about them.
Hi,
Yes, I remember seeing you browsing the forum quite often prior to the publication of your book. I seem to remember that you got in touch about something? Can't remember what it was now.
Well he is obviously here to browse only, as email & PM functions have been turned off. And yes I noticed him online here day and night before he announced his new book.
What gets me, is how evasive these "experts" are. If you did know something, you`d be more than happy to share it wouldn`t you? I know I would.
Anyway, no use having a Hide function if people are not going to use it. LOL
What gets me, is how evasive these "experts" are. If you did know something, you`d be more than happy to share it wouldn`t you? I know I would.
Anyway, no use having a Hide function if people are not going to use it. LOL
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You said, in regard to the content of your book, that it is "more important to know the originals as the reproductions". By your own admission you have not included fakes in this book because there are "not really good repros on the market". It's a glaring omission in my opinion because no matter how bad, some collectors may not yet have seen these fakes. I suspect that those who buy your book will generally be people with little or moderate knowledge of the competition and therefore, arguably, more likely not to know about the fakes. Nevertheless, you are effectively saying that you know what the fakes look like (and by implication what a good badge looks like). But do you really know the difference? As far as the 1944 badges go it would seem not if I'm honest.
It sounds with your book that you have disregarded the fakes because they are so obvious that it doesn't matter and have only included badges that you think are good.This implies a thought process and an analytical approach or... you have simply included badges that everyone thinks are okay or "accepted". Yes, fakes of the pre-1944 badges are easy to spot as they are usually dreadful but there are some, the 1938 Gausieger fake with the flat wire catch for example, that actually look quite nice. However, 1944 Gau- and Reichssieger badges have not been so easy until now. Jo has shown beyond all doubt that the so-called "mutant feather" 1944 Gausieger is a fake. This is real progress and I'm not having a go but you are now pushing HIM to answer questions that you should surely, as a book author, be able to answer yourself. That's how I see this.
Well just forgeting this thread for a moment, that really does seem to be the way it works if you look at the other forums. When something gets called out, the original posters just seem to sit back and scoff that they know it`s original, and leave the rest up to the person who called it out. I can`t recall any post where the poster has actually defended a genuine with the same gusto as you could pick a fake apart.
A recent WAF post by Hritz sums this up where a user Symonds, gets a refund from Hritz, because his jelewer tells him an award he got from Hritz is cast. Hritz`s response to the thread started is simply "I am wasting everyone`s time authenticating a no-brainer original." That was it, that was all he could muster up to defend the supposed fake he sold.
Not saying it was a fake or that the poster Symonds was even right, but more about the way that these "genuine items" are debated. There seems to be little to no pointers for anyone apart from "Look at the details, study originals." What details? what are they looking at and what are they using to judge the items and reach the conclusion that they are genuine? So it was just a simple question really but as you can see on this thread, it was twisted around, and the ownace was again placed on the nay sayer. I just find that strange.
It steers me more and more to the monkey see monkey do mentality of many, where the community adopts a go-to man (author or forum guru), and anything they say is just followed without seeking any real answers, or genuinly helpful points. I don`t think it`s any one persons fault, more likely just the way things have evolved.
A recent WAF post by Hritz sums this up where a user Symonds, gets a refund from Hritz, because his jelewer tells him an award he got from Hritz is cast. Hritz`s response to the thread started is simply "I am wasting everyone`s time authenticating a no-brainer original." That was it, that was all he could muster up to defend the supposed fake he sold.
Not saying it was a fake or that the poster Symonds was even right, but more about the way that these "genuine items" are debated. There seems to be little to no pointers for anyone apart from "Look at the details, study originals." What details? what are they looking at and what are they using to judge the items and reach the conclusion that they are genuine? So it was just a simple question really but as you can see on this thread, it was twisted around, and the ownace was again placed on the nay sayer. I just find that strange.
It steers me more and more to the monkey see monkey do mentality of many, where the community adopts a go-to man (author or forum guru), and anything they say is just followed without seeking any real answers, or genuinly helpful points. I don`t think it`s any one persons fault, more likely just the way things have evolved.
I know what you mean Jo. I almost smashed a couple of monitors and keyboards during my time on WAF. Same old faces dictating the conversation and then disappearing when asked to pony up. A couple of those faces joined this forum in the early days but didn't last long. Probably couldn't handle being without partisan mods and having to present their case on their own. Not that there was much "case presenting" going on of course. I remember Weinland's HJ "honour" knife thread beng a case in point 
Edited as I just noticed the "s" in "competitions". There was a post here noting that there was no centralised Reichskampf final in 1944 as there had been in previous years which is true but you said competitions as opposed to the singular so it's clear that you already knew that.
Yes, the main difference in 1944 was that the best of the Gausieger in the various disciplines who would normally have gone on to compete again at the Reichskampf did not do so as that stage did not take place in 1944 due to concerns about the safety of competitors due to bombing etc. Instead, the eventual Reichssieger were determined by committee.
Edited as I just noticed the "s" in "competitions". There was a post here noting that there was no centralised Reichskampf final in 1944 as there had been in previous years which is true but you said competitions as opposed to the singular so it's clear that you already knew that.
Yes, the main difference in 1944 was that the best of the Gausieger in the various disciplines who would normally have gone on to compete again at the Reichskampf did not do so as that stage did not take place in 1944 due to concerns about the safety of competitors due to bombing etc. Instead, the eventual Reichssieger were determined by committee.
From what I have read here, 373 is the number of Reichssieger, and not Gausieger, and the number of Gausieger is unknown for 1944?
In any case the number 373 is found in multiple period sources, so can be taken as fact for the Reichssieger, making the Reichssieger 1944 Award an extremely rare item indeed.
What I have seen, thanks to a member here who sent me scans of all the pages from MR. Rudel`s book that pertain to the 1944 Gau and Reichssieger Awards, is the following:
Firstly, it must be noted, for those seeking the "see my book for more info" as promised by MR. Rudel concerning the Gausieger 1944 Awards, there is simply no more info. Only a very brief passage about both Gau and Reichssieger badges, accompanied by a few pages of images. Nothing wrong with that at all, as I already stated a few posts back, many older books and newer books even are exactly like this, nothing new, just digital images and rehashing of known info, or a "gathering" of various posts found on fora across webland.
The only thing I can find in his book about the 1944 Gausieger Awards that I can`t find here, is that according to a newspaper clipping he shows, at least 600 Gausieger are known, from the Reichsnaehrstand-related occupations. (He doesn`t mention this in the book, though, just shows the clipping)
He dates it as LZ, 23.4.1944. (image below) a similar LZ mention can be found in footnote 8 by Garry here. Same paper just a few days later.
So, we can surely add a footnote to Garry’s post, stating at least 600 Gausiger 1944 are documented from one field – Reichsnaehrstand?
In any case the number 373 is found in multiple period sources, so can be taken as fact for the Reichssieger, making the Reichssieger 1944 Award an extremely rare item indeed.
What I have seen, thanks to a member here who sent me scans of all the pages from MR. Rudel`s book that pertain to the 1944 Gau and Reichssieger Awards, is the following:
Firstly, it must be noted, for those seeking the "see my book for more info" as promised by MR. Rudel concerning the Gausieger 1944 Awards, there is simply no more info. Only a very brief passage about both Gau and Reichssieger badges, accompanied by a few pages of images. Nothing wrong with that at all, as I already stated a few posts back, many older books and newer books even are exactly like this, nothing new, just digital images and rehashing of known info, or a "gathering" of various posts found on fora across webland.
The only thing I can find in his book about the 1944 Gausieger Awards that I can`t find here, is that according to a newspaper clipping he shows, at least 600 Gausieger are known, from the Reichsnaehrstand-related occupations. (He doesn`t mention this in the book, though, just shows the clipping)
He dates it as LZ, 23.4.1944. (image below) a similar LZ mention can be found in footnote 8 by Garry here. Same paper just a few days later.
So, we can surely add a footnote to Garry’s post, stating at least 600 Gausiger 1944 are documented from one field – Reichsnaehrstand?
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Ah yes, I was only talking about the number of Reichssieger when I said 373. I should have made that clearer. 600 Gausieger is useful info. Cheers for that and I'll add a note to the table in a mo. As to the total number of Gausieger in 1944: the most complete figures we have for comparison are for 1938 with:
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