Hitler Youth knife by Ernst Grah with blued scabbard

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I first want to say thank you for letting me post and yes, I've read your forum forum rules.

I'm going to come out and say it because that's how I am. I have nothing to offer anyone here on German WWII era knives. Or for that matter anything HJ. But that's why I'm here. Because I don't know & want to learn.

Old firearms are in my wheelhouse. Post civil war. Possibly I could help someone there?

This is what I have. About 20 years ago my father gave me my Grandfathers' bring backs.

Most of it would not pertain to this site but one thing does.
I have a HJ knife, with motto, & the Cartouche or makers mark is a "E" on top of a "G" with a box around it. It's different than any of the SA daggers I've seen his Cartouche on (Ernst Grah). His name goes around the E&G on his SA daggers where on the HJ knife does not have his name.

Underneath it says Soligen & below that is (my eyes aren't that good)
GES.GESCHUTZT

The sheath seams to be blued, not painted. Though it's a really rusty looking blue. It's not a dark blue/black like you would see on an old colt.
For all I know my grandgather blued it. Because I've been reading a lot recently & have yet to see anything about a blued sheath. My father is getting up there in age but I remember him saying to me when he gave it to me to leave it alone. And I called him yesterday & he Said he never touched it other then oil.

The knife also has been Professionaly personalized with a WG.
My father has always insisted it was for Wolfgang. Sounds good but who knows. I can't post pictures as this is my first post.

I just want to know what I have here. Can anyone help me? Also have a reversible camo for a guy that was very small. Like 5'4. My father thinks this was removed from the same German soldier but can't be sure.


Thank you.
 
Hi there and welcome to the forum. Could you upload some pictures of the knife please?
 
Hello Gary, some time today I'll have someone pull it out of my safe. I just recently had surgery & I can't go up or down stairs.
Thank you for your response
 
Was able to get some pictures.
Its far from perfect but it's not beat to the hilt either.

EDIT* Im having a hell of a time getting the URL to work from where the images are hosted at. I just uploaded them. Not sure if this will work.


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Here is the reversible camouflage in case anyone is curious.
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I don't see any problems with the knife. Nice, early example and a rare maker too!
 
Thank you for your response. I appreciate it.
But I still have some basic questions.
Did they Blue sheaths of this time period? Or parkerized?
Because it's not painted. Like stated earlier, my grandfather could have had it blued. I have no idea so I'm just throwing stuff out there. Though I would think bluing would be more then painting it in say the 50's.
When you say rare, what does that mean in this community?
May sound stupid but this and a few other apparently "early daggers"
That I can't find any info in books or the internet has given me much trouble getting an idea what ones meaning of rare is.
I've bought books & spent hours scouring the net over the past years trying to figure that out. And I always run into a road block
 
What I mean by "rare" is that Grah is more often seen on SA blades than HJ. You won't find many HJ knives by Grah.

The bluing on HJ sheaths is more of an observation by collectors than anything that is based on period information. It is seen as being a trait that is observed on knives that are otherwise original but I'm not aware of any research that has pinned down the bluing of HJ knife sheaths to the period or to specific makers.
 
The dagger is very nice but I very much like that reversible winter camo. Does your grandfather remember what area and approx date it was removed from the soldier? It would be interesting to see if we can figure out what unit it was from maybe 12 th SS 2nd patt marsh camo ?
 
Crack
Thank you for your help. It does make sense to me. When you lose a war your records tend to go with it. But from a manufacturing and collector standpoint what you said has made the most sense to me. In the past no one ever told me its been seen on what aperars to be an original knife. Usually I get offers to sell and no info on history. That had really made me think that maybe their are no collectors willing to help and only dealers. Thank you. In a odd way I almost wanted to hear they have never been seen before. Then I'd know my grandfather did it & it would be that much more special to me.
Again thank you!
You guys are slowly changing my mind on this community.
 
B-RAD,
Thank you for the comment and interest. I'm almost positive I can give you a month & location when this poor German soldier was forced to surrender. I have my father & aunt looking for it now. They think there was a picture of it because it was at the end of the war. If I'm wrong someone please tell me. But I have been always told that during the end those that did want to just stop fighting for the first time in 6-7 years went out of their way to find Americans. Or more like anyone but the Russians.
The year was 1945. That we know for sure. My grandfather was in the 3rd Army. Just a rifle man. Nothing special.
0311 if any of you have served in the Corps. I know the Corps all to well. Don't know the MOS of the army what so ever.
The suit is in excellent shape but it was not stored properly at some point in it's life. It's not brittle but I feel like I need to be very careful with it.
 
On the matter of HJ knife scabbard blueing I see no references to it in the period literature (RZM manufacturing instructions and orders).

1933-1935: scabbards were painted black

1935-1937: scabbards were "schwarz brüniert" i.e. treated with blackening salt (Brüniersalz). This produced a black finish or at the very worst, a shade of brown.

1938: scabbards were to be atramentised which was the treatment of the metal surface with phosphoric acid and phosphates. This produced a black finish. I don't know whether sheaths treated in this manner were subsequently painted black but black is the operative word.

1937/8: scabbards were painted black and then baked.

After that: no changes noted. In 1943 HJ knife production ceased.

I have not seen anything in period sources that would support the idea that blued HJ knife scabbards were manufactured during the TR but obviously would welcome input to the contrary. I have always viewed this "blue" as simply being the result of some mechanical process thought necessary to improve the appearance of an old knife scabbard that somehow damaged the original surface treatment leaving it with this colour. To make the scabbard blue on purpose it can be heat-treated like this but regulations state that HJ scabbards were black so why would any period manufacturer employ a process that would make the steel blue? I suppose that a possible scenario could be that a "blue" scabbard is one that changed colour during heat treatment at the factory but left with a black paint finish that was subsequently removed by someone thereby exposing the bare metal.
 
Subsequent to what I said above I came across an interesting order where the practice of removing the paint from the scabbard and then buffing it up had been noted during an inspection of units by one of the Gebietsführer. He also saw boys with chrome-plated scabbards. Both practices were banned obviously :) Off the top of my head I don't have a date for that order but I will find it ASP.

Edit: this was reported to have been happening in HJ-Gebiet Sachsen in Feb 1936
 
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