HJ leader Walther pistol

Forums New posts
Poloberst

Poloberst

.
.
Joined
Oct 26, 2022
Messages
53
Thanks Received
15
Certain senior ranks of the HJ were authorized to carry Walther PPK pistols in 7,65mm or 6,35mm. These were carried in black holsters worn over the left hip. Do any forum members have photos of such pistols being worn. Also, is there any record of HJ pistol shooting with .22 cal. Walther pistols?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Hi there,

Yes, small calibre shooting on the pistol was introduced for the RJF, Gebiet and Bann staffs on 1.7.1937. The weapon used was the Walther PP calibre 22 5.6mm.

I'm sure a few photos showing leaders wearing the holster will be shown by members. Here's one from 1943 (AHS Sonthofen):

You don't have permission to view attachments.


Some general information on pistol ownership can be found below but if you need more information on who exactly shot and how testing was conducted (Pistolenschiessen - Pistolenklasse I, II) I can go into that in more detail.

Just a little background on pistol ownership for those who may not already have the info:

Pistol training/shooting was formally introduced for the RJF, Gebiet and Bann staffs on 23.7.1937.

The ownership of pistols was finally authorised by Rudolf Hess on 21.9.1938 for Bannführer and higher. Those personnel already in possession of a pistol at that point had an entry made into their HJ leader ID which acted as permission to own the weapon. Those leaders (Bannführer and higher) who did not own a pistol at this point but who wished to were required to obtain a permit from the RJF. HJ-Stabsführer Lauterbacher made an announcement in Oct of that year that the proviso of the Reichsjugendführer was that there should be no "open carry" of any authorised pistols. In January 1939 amendments were made to the regulation as follows:

leaders up to the rank of Oberstammführer were to obtain a weapon licence from their local police authority.

The "open carry" rule was rescinded on the 5th of Sept 1941. From that point on, authorised leaders could wear the weapon in a holster on the higher leader formal uniform "Führerdienstanzug".
 

Attachments

    You don't have permission to view attachments.
Thank you for the prompt and informative response. I have some copies of regulations Wim sent me a while back, but wanted to flesh it in with photos and explanations.
 
Well thank you for sharing through Wim. The reason for my inquiry was this pistol that was sold a year or so ago. The .22lr Walther PP dates from 1942.

You don't have permission to view attachments.
You don't have permission to view attachments.
You don't have permission to view attachments.
 

Attachments

    You don't have permission to view attachments.
It would be nice to own a Party Leader Pistol , identified by eagle & swastika grips, Alfons Heck a mentions getting one when as a gift when he became Bannführer, he mentions the swastika on pistol. Pic of a Party leaders Pistol that went for $10,000 about 5yrs ago, pic of some books by Alfons Heck, highly recommended.

You don't have permission to view attachments.
You don't have permission to view attachments.
 

Attachments

    You don't have permission to view attachments.
Very nice pistol and then also from the area that I collect. Thanks for showing.
 
zacker said:
It would be nice to own a Party Leader Pistol , identified by eagle & swastika grips, Alfons Heck a mentions getting one when as a gift when he became Bannführer, he mentions the swastika on pistol. Pic of a Party leaders Pistol that went for $10,000 about 5yrs ago, pic of some books by Alfons Heck, highly recommended.

You don't have permission to view attachments.
You don't have permission to view attachments.
Click to expand...
Did Heck also hold a rank as a Political Leader in addition to his rank in the HJ? Did he mention wearing it on occasions? According to the Organisationsbuch, that was not permissible unless he was of the proper PL rank.

Of course before the special grip was created in 1938, Political Leaders purchased RZM marked PPKs as their Ehrenwaffe/ Dienstpistole. The problem with purchasing a Party Leader PPK is that unless there is provenance, there is no assurance the grips came with the gun. Over the past decades, there have been many instances of grips being switched from a mediocre pistol to one in much better condition, in order to realize a higher price. The so-called serial ranges of PL PPKs are merely ranges of pistols reported and published in "reference" books. But there was no provenance whatsoever for those reported PL PPKs. Very few have provenance. Here is one that I purchased long ago and documented with period newspapers. A group of ten were awarded to the best marksmen in Gau Franken in early 1939 in preparation for the pistol match that never occurred at the 1939 RPT in Nüremberg.

You don't have permission to view attachments.
 

Attachments

    You don't have permission to view attachments.
@ Ploberst, my mistake he was promoted to a Gefolgschaftsführer by Bannführer Horst Wendt, I imagine not all strict rules where not followed, anyway a pic of his description of Walther pistol, I havent seen any other pistols with the swas. on them. Yes he mentions wearing it a few times, once when he wanted to shoot a deserter, and @ meeting with Speer & Hitler & other HJ leaders.

You don't have permission to view attachments.
 

Attachments

    You don't have permission to view attachments.
His description was generic and could equally have been the Walther PP that had been authorized for HJ leaders of certain ranks. And the swastika could of course been an addition to the gifted pistol ordered by the Bannfuhrer to be inlaid in the grip. How old was Heck at that time?
 
Poloberst said:
His description was generic and could equally have been the Walther PP that had been authorized for HJ leaders of certain ranks. And the swastika could of course been an addition to the gifted pistol ordered by the Bannfuhrer to be inlaid in the grip. How old was Heck at that time?
Click to expand...
A big OOPS! My mistake and apology. I forgot already the decrees Wim sent me and having just reviewed them, I note that it could be the Walther PPK that was authorized to senior officers. But further decrees indicate authorization to carry a handgun, so a Walther PP could have been presented as a gift.
Poloberst said:
Certain senior ranks of the HJ were authorized to carry Walther PP pistols in 7,65mm or 6,35mm. These were carried in black holsters worn over the left hip. Do any forum members have photos of such pistols being worn. Also, is there any record of HJ pistol shooting with .22 cal. Walther pistols?
Click to expand...
As above, my mental capacities seem to be failing. The decrees Wim sent stipulated Walther PPK pistols in 7,65mm or 6,35mm. So the beginning of this thread needs correction. Sorry.
 
Poloberst said:
A big OOPS! My mistake and apology. I forgot already the decrees Wim sent me and having just reviewed them, I note that it could be the Walther PPK that was authorized to senior officers. But further decrees indicate authorization to carry a handgun, so a Walther PP could have been presented as a gift.

As above, my mental capacities seem to be failing. The decrees Wim sent stipulated Walther PPK pistols in 7,65mm or 6,35mm. So the beginning of this thread needs correction. Sorry.
Click to expand...

I can perform an edit for you if needed of course but what exactly needs to be corrected? The Walther PPK in calibre 7.65 and 6.35 were the only pistols authorised for wear on the HJ leader uniform. This is stipulated in Reichsbefehl RJF 33/41K dated 5.9.1941:

"The pistol 7.65 or 6.35 is to be worn with the Grosser Führerdienstanzug".

The HJ Führerkorps dress regulations for 1941 also mention the pistol as being part of the Grosser Führerdienstanzug. The pistol is stated as being a "Walther PPK calibre 7.65 or 6.35" and that it was to be carried in a black holster worn directly behind the left hip. No other calibres were permitted. The points I made in post #2 were mainly about the ownership of weapons generally but as far as the wearing of pistols by authorised youth leaders when in uniform is concerned the only weapon permitted was the Walther.
 
Last edited:
Poloberst said:
His description was generic and could equally have been the Walther PP that had been authorized for HJ leaders of certain ranks. And the swastika could of course been an addition to the gifted pistol ordered by the Bannfuhrer to be inlaid in the grip. How old was Heck at that time?
Click to expand...
16, & 8 months later made Bannführer of Bann 244 Wittlich still 16, which would make most likely the youngest HJ leader in the country, rules where bent, did what they had to do with kids. Mentions he was 17 @ end of war, IMO think it was still a PPl pistol, in 44 when things are going down hill fast, I doubt they take time to customize a firearm, he mentions putting the barrel in his mouth while hiding in a basement after seeing Pattton"s 3rd army rolling into town, but threw the pistol against the wall.
 
Last edited:
Garry said:
I can perform an edit for you if needed of course but what exactly needs to be corrected? The Walther PPK in calibre 7.65 and 6.35 were the only pistols authorised for wear on the HJ leader uniform. This is stipulated in Reichsbefehl RJF 33/41K dated 5.9.1941:

"The pistol 7.65 or 6.35 is to be worn with the Grosser Führerdienstanzug".

The HJ Führerkorps dress regulations for 1941 also mention the pistol as being part of the Grosser Führerdienstanzug. The pistol is stated as being a "Walther PPK calibre 7.65 or 6.35" and that it was to be carried in a black holster worn directly behind the left hip. No other calibres were permitted. The points I made in post #2 were mainly about the ownership of weapons generally but as far as the wearing of pistols by authorised youth leaders when in uniform is concerned the only weapon permitted was the Walther.
Click to expand...
Gary, the first sentence of my first post "Certain senior ranks of the HJ were authorized to carry Walther PP pistols in 7,65mm or 6,35mm" is incorrect. As you point out and I noted above, it should read Walther PPK. Sorry to be a pain with the corrections.
 
zacker said:
16, & 8 months later made Bannführer of Bann 244 Wittlich still 16, which would make most likely the youngest HJ leader in the country, rules where bent, did what they had to do with kids. Mentions he was 17 @ end of war, IMO think it was still a PPl pistol, in 44 when things are going down hill fast, I doubt they take time to customize a firearm, he mentions putting the barrel in his mouth while hiding in a basement after seeing Pattton"s 3rd army rolling into town, but threw the pistol against the wall.
Click to expand...

This is very interesting to me as I've been working on a project for a while now to research all leaders of the Banne, Untergaue etc 1933-45. There were three different Bannführer during the course of 1944 for Bann 244 with the last appointment (currently known to me anyway) being made on 26.7.1944. Heck must have been appointed after this but does he say when he was made Bannführer 244?

Also, Bannführer Wendt.. I have a few in my list with that surname. Is there any detail on where Heck was when he was promoted by Wendt?

Incidentally, there was one other 16 year-old Bannführer by the name of Edgar Gielsdorf who was Bannführer 464 from 1942 to 1943. He was appointed two weeks before his 17th birthday though so your guy beats him ;)

Thanks in advance.
 
Garry said:
This is very interesting to me as I've been working on a project for a while now to research all leaders of the Banne, Untergaue etc 1933-45. There were three different Bannführer during the course of 1944 for Bann 244 with the last appointment (currently known to me anyway) being made on 26.7.1944. Heck must have been appointed after this but does he say when he was made Bannführer 244?

Also, Bannführer Wendt.. I have a few in my list with that surname. Is there any detail on where Heck was when he was promoted by Wendt?

Incidentally, there was one other 16 year-old Bannführer by the name of Edgar Gielsdorf who was Bannführer 464 from 1942 to 1943. He was appointed two weeks before his 17th birthday though so your guy beats him ;)

Thanks in advance.
Click to expand...
Soon as I get time look through book, meanwhile here is a documentary Mr. Heck made
 
Let's see if I can make a post without needing edit by the Mod. I finally found the two photos I had of holsters and presumably pistols being worn by HJ officers.

The first is an unusual one as the HJ men seem to be bodyguards around the speaker on the podium. I can't recognize the holsters completely but they look Walther PP size. Any comments on uniforms and perhaps time period?
You don't have permission to view attachments.


The second is a self explanatory image and shows the RJF weaing a PP on his left hip.
You don't have permission to view attachments.
 

Attachments

    You don't have permission to view attachments.
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top