Let's talk about Olympic Hitler Youth and 1935 Reichsparteitag daggers

[Garry]

Subsequent to the this thread a HJ-Wiki page was created to discuss these knives.
All updates will be added there in future:

1935 Reichsparteitag knife

1936 Olympic knife


Add your links to other discussions, evidence, pictures - anything that will help in building a compendium of information on these items for quick reference.

This post will act as the collecting point for information and it will be updated as information comes in from your posts below.

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I'll start us off with a first snippet of information on these knives.

Picture of a Nürnberg and RPT knife (will follow)

The Olympic and RPT knives have been sold by some dealers and sellers for a couple of decades now but no period evidence exists to substantiate the claim that they were produced during the TR period for the events depicted on the blades. They are often the same base product used for the so-called 'DJ' and 'BDM' knives but others are known with stag grips an leather sheaths.

The RPT knives were not known prior to the 1980s as evidenced by this statement Nurnburg, Olympic, DJ, BDM - GermanDaggers.com by Mr Houston Coates (he was supported in this in the same thread by Mr Ron Weinand and Mr Frederick Stevens):

"In the "old days" the 35 DJ type party day knives were not known. They did not show up until maybe the 80's. This could be verified if you have some old catalogs where they talked about "finding" these pieces in Germany"

 

[Jo Rivett]

Olympic Fever .....

Achtung Collectors...we have some again!
When common Logic is applied, .........

Oftentimes seen with high prices because they are “scarce” or “rare”. Or with a “story” - to try and convince collectors to part with their money in exchange for the item.

They are always Mint
They are always from the same people
They are Rare ... yet... when you look at the known Forger and Repro-seller GERM- we find the following Sales Pitch....

PRICE: COLLECTORS, WE SOLD THE LAST OF THESE OVER A YEAR AGO to the disappointment of enthusiastic collectors. But NOW we have managed to acquire a few more, but they won’t last long. These even have the original issue bags with them! $1,600.00 while they last. Don’t hesitate!!!

i mean... c`mon, you DONT see it? But NOW we have managed to acquire a few more.. are you freaking kidding me???? LOL... and the description?? And people are still falling for this in 2012? LOL...
like... just what kind of Neo-Nazi crap sales pitch is this???

Our German-branch crews, who scour the Fatherland on a constant basis, recently discovered several of these

DESCRIPTION: This is a tiny Fahrtenmesser or Hitler Youth knife. It is much smaller than the usual encountered H.J. weapon and was specially produced for a presentation gift to the young people from the N.S. Youth Organization, who did so much to help with this the grandest of Olympiads. Unlike its larger cousin this petite dagger has stag grips, while the normal issue one has black plastic grips. Even the enameled insignia at the middle of the grip is smaller. The blade is quite beautiful with the crowned bear of the city (Berlin) and the N.S. sports eagle with the familiar Olympic rings. The saying “Zum Ruhme des Sports zur Ehre des Vaterlandes” is reminiscent of the actual spirit of these 1936 games. It means: “The Glory of Sports is the Honor of the Fatherland.” This little treasure was produced by the firm of Emil Voos of Solingen. The knife is in excellent shape throughout; especially the blade and this in near mint. Our German-branch crews, who scour the Fatherland on a constant basis, recently discovered several of these great little knives in Potsdam outside of Berlin after a lengthy search. These were socked away with 49 Hitler Youth Olympic posters (That we did not get!), but it was the information about the posters that a major poster dealer, who turned us on to that, resulted in our being able to procure the little HJ knives. To her we owe a great debt of gratitude. The posters and knives were packed away in 1945 and now can be offered in very limited supply to the collecting public. Whenever examples have rarely been offered before they have brought from $1,500 to $2,500, because of their high desirability and scarcity. Because Germania International, LLC has managed to procure a small group of these beautiful knives we will offer you one at $1,650.00 and please know that this is a definitely a smart investment opportunity to own one of the scarcest edged weapons of the Third Reich. We are now down to two of these and we sent them out as the best condition ones to the first buyers to come. Some of them when stored over the many years show some minor rust, but sometimes it is in the design itself thus very difficult to remove. So we would suggest you call first to have us describe in detail the one you will receive, but regardless of the condition. This is a very important Hitler Youth and Olympic item indeed. This is very probably a one-time opportunity to aquire this piece; a great historical treasure of the Reich.

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[RussellM]

Jeez, what a load of crap that is!!

Anyone who falls for that must be completely brain dead.

Regards

Russ

 

[operaman]

Found this photo in a book by Major John R.Angolia Called "Daggers,Bayonets & Fighting Kinives of Hitlers Germany.Thought I would stir the pot a bit.The book was printed in 1971.

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[Jo Rivett]

Found this photo in a book by Major John R.Angolia Called "Daggers,Bayonets & Fighting Kinives of Hitlers Germany.Thought I would stir the pot a bit.The book was printed in 1971.

WOW...with awardee 6311 - number too ... obviously not just a rare item, but a rare AWARDED item... i seem to recall seeing this knife in a collection before?? just not sure if it was the "What-a-load-of-old-toad" collection, or the "Pull-the-other-one" collection?

 

[operaman]

This book has some really strange daggers listed,I will post later on.

 

[Jo Rivett]

"Its easier to Fool someone, than to convince someone they have been fooled"

Mark Twain

How about turning this into a POLL as well?

 

[RussellM]

Here we go gents, not 1, not 2, but 3 of these stunners available now, complete with a useless paper bag!!

http://www.wwiidaggers.com/HYK.htm

Step right up gents, a bargain at $1995 each.

Wittmann Militaria #34623 1936 Berlin Olympics Souvenir Knife by Emil Voos

HYK #34623 1936 Berlin Olympics Souvenir Knife – Emil Voos

This Berlin Olympic Knife is about the size of a DJ knife. These knives were originally produced to serve as souvenir pieces sold at the 1936 Berlin Olympics. The hilt is the same as a DJ knife being produced of all cast aluminum. The aluminum finish is still all there and in excellent condition. Fitted to the hilt are genuine stag grip plates. These grip plates have a pleasing raised grain and are an attractive brown color having trimmed edges of off-white color. The obverse grip plate has a pinned Hitler Youth enameled insignia. The insignia wiggles slightly in its placement indicating that it is pinned. The insignia has perfect red, white, and silver with black swastika enamel. These grip plates are retained by aluminum rivets having dressed heads on both sides. The blade of this example is a single edged type with false edge at the top. It has a short ricasso. The blade shows 100% of the original factory graining in the surfaces. On the obverse side there is the symbol of Berlin which consists of a crown over a shield which inside has a black bear standing on its hind feet. At the bottom of the blade is the NSDAP sports eagle which depicts an eagle with half open wings and a mobile swastika on its stomach area. The eagle retains in its claws the rings of the Olympic circles. These rings are colored in green, gold, blue and red. Between the two depictions is the five line dedication in inlaid gold letters, “ZUM RUHME / DES SPORTS / ZUR EHRE / DES VATER- / LANDES”. This dedication means, “For the glory of sports and honor of the fatherland”. On the reverse there is an etched logo consisting of a snake around a stump. Above the logo is the firm’s name, “Emil Voos” and below the location town of “Solingen”. Below this is the patent pending designation, “Ges. Geschutzt”. The original black leather blade buffer is in place.

The tube steel scabbard is in Excellent condition having good original paint showing only nominal age but still rating just about 100%. Attached to this scabbard is a leather belt loop having a small grip retainer loop with working snap. Most of the black color is gone from the snap but the leather is still in good condition. Accompanying this Olympic souvenir knife is its original issue sack. The sack is composed of manila paper having a gray color and being about 9 inches in length and about 4 inches in width at the top, and it tapers toward the bottom. Printed on the obverse of the paper is the firm’s name and location, “Emil Voos / Solingen” and beneath this is the logo with name and location along with the patent pending stamping, “Ges. Geschützt”. Beneath that is the German word for the youth knife, “Fahrtenmesser”, and rubber stamped beneath that is the type of knife, “Berliner / Olympiade”, and beneath this is a printing testifying to the quality of the steel, “Ia Guss Stahl-/Klinge”. There are also some decorative lines at the bottom of the sack. The reverse of the sack is plain. This is a great opportunity to acquire one of these authentic Olympic knives. There was a unsold box of these knives discovered after the Wall came down in 1991. The majority of these knives were all sold in the last decade but I ran into a collector who had stored away a few of them and I managed to buy several from him. These knives make for a terrific addition to a Hitler Youth collection.

Mint Minus. $1,995.00

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And also, another top notch bargain for the punters today, step into this one gents!

HYK #34512 1935 Nuremberg Party Day Souvenir Knife – Puma

Wittmann Militaria #34512 1935 Nuremberg DJ Knife
This Nuremberg Party Day Souvenir Knife was originally sold at the 1935 Party Day rallies in Nuremberg. It is a most attractive item having a DJ style hilt being of all aluminum. Attached to the hilt are genuine stag grip plates. These grip plates have attractive brown grains with off-white edges. The grip plates are retained by aluminum rivets which have dressed heads on both sides. The scabbard is a tube steel type that tapers at the end. The original black finish is still all there having a somewhat matte look to it. Attached to the scabbard is a fine leather belt loop along with a small retainer loop with snap to retain the hilt of the knife. The blade is a single edge type with false edge at the top and short ricasso. This blade has all of the original factory graining on the surfaces. Etched onto the obverse of the blade is a gold inlaid open-winged Party eagle which clutches a swastika within a wreath. Below this is the event the knife commemorates, “REICHSPARTEITAG / 1935”. Below this are the triple castle turrets which are part of the logo of the city of Nuremberg. Below this is the Nuremberg city crest which is in gold, red and black enamel. The crest has the name of the city above, “Nürnberg” and below is a shield split in half. The left portion of the shield portrays half of an eagle and the right portion portrays stripes of red and white which go downward on a forty-five degree angle. On the reverse of the knife is the maker logo and location. The logo consists of a diamond having a puma head inside with the firm name below, “Puma”. Below the diamond is the location city of “Solingen”. The original leather washer is in position. This souvenir knife represents one of the leftovers which were discovered in East Germany after the Wall came down. There was a couple of boxes of these knives which were offered to the collecting public at the time. Most have long since disappeared into collections so this is a rare opportunity to acquire one of these outstanding artifacts for your collection.

Excellent Plus, Plus. $1,695.00

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Oh, and a couple of the usual, common DJ knives as well...

Regards

Russ

 

[RussellM]

But gents, this text is curious, because the Berlin Olympic knives, according to Mr Wittman:

"...were originally produced to serve as souvenir pieces sold at the 1936 Berlin Olympics."

So, if this is a fact, how come the same type of knife, according to Mr Wittman, was available at the 1935 Parteitag?

Was it a copy?

By another manufacturer?

Huh?

Regards

Russ

 

[Jo Rivett]

ACHTUNG COLLECTORS, WE HAVE SOME AGAIN
c`mon man... Germania International did`nt kill the whole scam with their description? Folk are still falling for this? Seems like Germania International, Wittman, Johnson and Snyder all copying and pasting each others descriptions...
..scratches chin...yes Watson, a most parasitic relationship indeed....

we have, - (pause) - some, again.... what kind of a cuckoo brain comes up with a sales pitch like that, on items like these? That would rank above a shot in the foot, probably both legs blown off there..

 

[Gefolgschaft]

Footage and very clear photos of members of the "Jugendehrendienst" working at the Berlin games do not show any sort of knife worn by these kids. Any knife at all. Check my blogsite for clear photos and video of the young members wearing a white Kletterveste type jacket, hose, and mutze. You would think if the knife was a legit item these members would be proudly showing them off??... Yet no knives of any sort seen in different settings of photos of the kids. Things that make you go hmmm.

Link to the photos and footage.
H.J. and D.J. Cloth Insignia: Jugend Ehrendienst Sleeve Triangle

 

[RussellM]

Ah, very good Darin, but don't you know that these would have been taken straight home, in out-stretched hands, the paper bag and knife being held tenderly, and with reverence, in a parallel position to the ground to be kept in pristine condition so they could be found and sold decades later to people with no brains?

Great link!

Regards

Russ

 

[RussellM]

Of course, Darin, you are 100% correct in your observations - no souvenir knives visible at all because there weren't any!

They would most certainly have been worn if they existed.

Regards

Russ

 

[RussellM]

So, let's take this to the next step.

We have Wittman saying this knife (style) was specifically made for the 1936 Berlin Olympics, then we have the same style turning up the year before in 1935 for the Parteitag with no diamond and a different etch and maker, then we have Weinand saying this knife style with bakelite grip plates with a diamond added to the scabbard was a "well known late war variation" and was worn by the DJ, and is a legitimate piece.

So which is it guys?

You need to co-ordinate your stories a little more closely, because you have one basic knife design, three different bullshit purposes and three different time periods.

No, make that at least four, I forgot about the one with the HJ diamond in the bakelite grip - perhaps that's the BDM one eh?

Regards

Russ

 

[Jo Rivett]

Russel, this is the product of many decades of going with the flow, and categorizing rubbish into what "could be" and "may be" - to best suit future production/sales of phony items... after a while the theory just becomes accepted - especially if it is in-print.
Then some clever clogs comes along, (that would be all of us here i guess) and points out the obvious. It`s like telling 100 different fibs to 100 different people, over time you forget who you told what to, and seeing as you have just gone with the flow and thrown theories around the room without consulting basic history first, the story will mutate somewhat, and be adapted to suit time, person and argument, without realizing that you stated the contrary long ago, or that your "claims" are based on the opposite of what history tells you. I guess these old guys have to stick to their story, even though they know that they are wrong, and that history is laughing at them, they cant loose face. And it`s about saving face and making money, not about facts or questions pertaining to the items.

They dont care about anything other than turning a buck off the weak collector who gathers crumbs from beneath their tables at every show. (and says Thank-You after) And concerning "Helping the collector", for example like we try and do on Forums, when have they ever helped? all they have done is never bothered to learn the history, and shifted crap amongst their little circle of like-minded specialists, making sure that at least 1 of them publish the crap in a future book.

THINK !!
Metallwarenfabrik says: "Guys, this HJ badge is real, because i personally know of originals, because it came directly from a returning vet, because this special HJ badge was awarded by HItler to people he liked"
and the community says? "Nice one, thanks for the info - i`ll pass it on as Gospel" ?? or do they say: "Metallwarenfabrik, can you show us how you reached these assumptions?"

But, when the Bible-Dagger crew publish the same, nonsensical rubbish, they DO NOT footnote anything, or show any evidence at all, they simply state, THIS WAS FOR... or some other crap that they have conjured up.
It is exactly the same thing......... no footnotes, no debate, no questioning = 100% PERSONAL OPINION, nothing more, nothing less, and these guys, are WRONG, and have been since day 1. Whether they are all crooks and have been deliberately wrong, i dont know, but judging from the crap they are still peddling as good today, i would say it certainly looks deliberate!

 

[operaman]

So both blades are fake? Somebody please say the words,both blades are fake don't buy them for any reason.

 

[Jo Rivett]

So both blades are fake....

You might want to extend that "Both" to include the off-spring like MOUNTAIN-HJ knives...etc...

I like the way the other forums brush these off as "You either believe or you dont..." whatever happened to simple EDUCATION ? you either believe or you dont could apply to anything and everything... Some lame brains have included all HJ Knives with opaque enamel into the "You either believe or you dont" category along with these? when opaque enamel is about as relevant to a knowledgeable collector pertaining to an items authenticity, as sandpaper is to someone with hemorrhoids !

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[Gefolgschaft]

I don't believe in the "HJ Leader Fighting Knife" either. Maybe someday someone will prove a lot of us wrong with some tangible evidence like documents or photos, but until that day collector lore is not enough to sway my personal opinion of all these odd "HJ, DJ, BDM" knives.

 

[Jo Rivett]

I don't believe in the "HJ Leader Fighting Knife"

Neither do i. Look at the first SEVEN daggers on Wittmans site... all seven are fantasy... LOL,.. totaling over $11,000.- ha ha ha ha ha..... if you miss any of those seven, Dont worry chums, because as a Dealer once said.. ACHTUNG COLLECTORS, WE NOW HAVE SOME MORE ....

 

[Garry]

Wiki pages needed. Will be up in due course

Edit:

1936 Olympic Knife

1935 Reichsparteitag Knife