SA or HJ buckle?

[Lebensgefahr]

Hello everyone.

I recently found these items. The buckle made of brass plate with the eagle made of nickel-plated brass. It is 45 mm buckle.
One guy in this thread dated this type of a buckle (19015 wich is similar but not the same) by 1926

https://www.warrelics.eu/forum/sa-buckles-nskk-nsfk/origins-sturmabteilung-buckle-115186/

They almost certainly belonged to the same person. As far as I know, there is about a four-year gap between the introduction of the two badges. Based on that, I estimated the owner's birth year to be around 1915–1916. I'm trying to identify the owner because I have a rough idea of who might have lived at this location.

Initially, I assumed these items represented different periods of the owner's life (HJ badges is one, rank stars, and an SA buckle another). However, I recently discovered that all of these items could actually have been worn together by a member of the Hitler Youth (HJ).

File:FHM-282358 Hitler Youth (Hitlerjugend) HQ-building Berlin (Haus der Reichsjugendfuhrung? Ost-Berlin c 1933-36) Press office uniformed boys HJ swastika flag papers BDM chart. Nazi propaganda photo (Frihedsmuseet Nationalmuseet Denmark).jpg - Wiki

commons.wikimedia.org

In this photo, both of these badges are visible (one on the cap and the other on the chest), and the rank stars can also be seen. In the photo with the documents, the buckles have the HJ diamond attached, but in the photo with the map, you can see the lower edge of the buckle worn by the person with one rank star, and there is no HJ diamond on it.

The photographs are dated to approximately 1933–1936.

My questions are:

Did these items belong to the SA or the Hitler Youth (HJ), or could they all have been worn together by an HJ member at the same time?
Is it possible to date them more precisely based on the maker's marks on the badges and the absence of markings on the buckle?

Thanks in advance for any insights!

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[mkholst]

Hi Lebensgefahr

As you can see in this picture from an original Assmann sales catalog, a 45 mm belt buckle is for SA and a 35 mm for HJ.

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So your belt buckle must be an SA buckle.

Michael

 

[Lebensgefahr]

Hi Lebensgefahr

As you can see in this picture from an original Assmann sales catalog, a 45 mm belt buckle is for SA and a 35 mm for HJ.

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So your belt buckle must be an SA buckle.

Michael

Thanks. I saw this catalog. But I saw another one. There is 19015 type in it too and it is nickel plated as you can see (like mine).
And there is a HJ buckle there which called S.A. u N.S.K.K Koppelschnallen. This buckle is standard after December of 1933 https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...i_Germany_No_known_copyright_restrictions.jpg
And mine isn't absolutely the same. Mine has no signs on internal side. It was produced before this catalog appear I think.

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[mkholst]

I'm not sure I fully understand what you're writing about
"And there is a HJ buckle there which called S.A. u N.S.K.K Koppelschnallen."

Because the text on the page is ABOVE the pictured belt buckles.

So the 2 on the top line are both SA (Koppeschlösser is plural, so it applies to both of them)
On line 2 it's both DJ
On line 3 it's ONE Hj and ONE BDM
On the last line it's both SA/NSKK

So I still think your belt buckle is an SA

Michael

 

[Lebensgefahr]

I'm not sure I fully understand what you're writing about
"And there is a HJ buckle there which called S.A. u N.S.K.K Koppelschnallen."

Because the text on the page is ABOVE the pictured belt buckles.

So the 2 on the top line are both SA (Koppeschlösser is plural, so it applies to both of them)
On line 2 it's both DJ
On line 3 it's ONE Hj and ONE BDM
On the last line it's both SA/NSKK

So I still think your belt buckle is an SA

Michael

Thank you for the clarification. I hadn't noticed that the text above the image referred to the entire row.

I remember seeing somewhere that the SA-type buckle was also used by the HJ before 1933, prior to the introduction of the standardized pattern.

There are two images in the link above. If you enlarge the one showing the people with documents on the table, you can clearly see the buckle on the right(attachment). It is an HJ buckle with the diamond beneath the eagle. However, if you enlarge the image showing the people leaning over the map, you can see the buckle on the left (attachment). That one is clearly not an HJ buckle with the diamond.

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I found these items within an area of about one square meter, buried in the ground, using a metal detector. They clearly belonged to the same person.
At first, I thought they were part of a sort of keepsake box containing mementos from different periods of that person's life, since the collection included items from different stages of his life.
However, I came across images showing HJ members wearing the same shoulder strap stars as those used by the SA. It's also possible that they used SA-style belt buckles before the standardized HJ buckle was introduced. That would better explain why all of my finds were together in one place.
The shoulder strap stars had been carefully removed from the shoulder straps before they ended up in the ground. Their prongs had been folded over and show the characteristic bends resulting from their original attachment.
So I can't decide was he HJ and SA or HJ only member.