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You raise some very valid points russ,
SA/SS Daggers changed from the original marker mark /nickle silver fittings to plated fittings and RZM marked
2nd lufts to variations in crossguard patterns ? but from what i understand no change in the overall dimensions in any of the above daggers
It doesnt make sense that you would retool to make a smaller HJ knife due to the lack of materiels as the war went on as youve said there are still early HJ knifes on the market that are as bright as a button,
I believe that in 1939 an order went out banning the wear of dress daggers in favour of the pistol sidearm and at that point much of the dagger sword manufacture ceased. I would further put foreward that manufacture of HJ knives soon ceased also for sure nothing after 44
I thought that perhaps they were originally made for the commemoratives, then, having loads of un-used and un-etched stock, they morphed into DJ/BDM items! Another whole topic to explore with varying opinions on the authenticity of the commemoratives in the same style as the plain DJ/BDM knife.
Flug, pm sent.
I have to agree with Paul, that this is probably the best discussion here on the board. After reading over everything, and hopefully I didn't miss it along the way, the thought that popped into my head is "Could these smaller knives have been the "next generation" knives for the HJ?" Building on parts from previous posts, that they are generally in good, unused, like new condition, etc?
Since things did progress and change (Helmet styles, uniform styles) in an effort to speed production or due to lack of materials...anyway, just a thought.
i think your right russ, this is just a pic taken by the author to show in his book and not a period pic, and without any oeriod evidence these daggers will allways be frowned upon,its just hard to see how there can be so many hj/dj pics in excistence but not 1 shows these small daggers
See this from post 98 of this 2009 thread:
I have been buying Third Reich militaria from veterans for many years, to be exact over fifty. During this time I have bought four of the "DJ" style Hitler Youth Knives. All were in mint to near mint condition showing no previous use by the Germans.
Most of the veterans couldn't remember where they found them, but all did state that they were new and unused when they obtained them. All of the ones I found had the HJ Diamond on the scabbard obverse. None were maker marked.
Now, it is widely known that this style knife WAS available from Solingen manufacturers sans the HJ Diamond and in the same form that we all see from time to time at shows. Some were aluminum hilt and some, especially from Klaas, came with the steel plated hilt. Klaas is KNOWN to have produced this same knife post war in its catalog.
My belief, based on the number of mint "DJ" knives found and the odd number of "bowie blade style" HJ Knives found from WKC, is that when supplies became limited and the demand for HJ Knives continued, certain Solingen manufacturers just converted remaining supplies to cover the HJ demand with "unofficial" style HJ Knives. I believe that this is what we are encountering. No such thing as a BDM or DJ knife in my opinion.
Also, other than the Puma Party Day Knife, I am unsure as to the originality of the other group of HJ style knives with embellished blades. I have NEVER bought such a knife from a veteran and don't know of any that came directly out of the veteran's hands to date. This is just an opinion, not cut in stone.
Now see this - sorry to refer to another forum.
Deutsche jugend 'messer - Wehrmacht-Awards.com Militaria Forums
It seems that in 3 years, Ron's "belief" is now a "well known late war variation".
I await the evidence.
He won't have any evidence and going on past experience I expect him to ignore that thread now that you have asked for his sources. It wouldn't be the first time.
It might be useful for viewers of that thread to read our thread here Russ. Any chance that you could link to it from your post on WAF?