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  1. #131

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    I know, I couldn't help it!

    I guess if some people want to accept what dealers tell them in regards to this type of knife, more fool them. You only have to see and feel the size of them to know they were not issued to anyone, certainly not as a replacement for the standard HJ knife.

    It's been good to re-visit this anyway, as it has been a while.

    Regards

    Russ

  2. #132
    Here's an example of an item description designed to convince the potential customer. It clearly worked in this case.

    RARE Deutsches Jungvolk Knife w/Scabbard Insignia. No maker. This superb DJ Knife with scabbard insignia was recently veteran estate obtained in Michigan from the son of a WWII Army Ordnance Officer assigned to the US 5th Army. The knife was brought home as war booty in 1946. A photograph of this pattern DJ knife with scabbard insignia appears on page 81 of Collecting the Edged Weapons of the Third Reich Volume I. Polished aluminum hilt fittings show virtually no wear to the pommel, spine or crossguard with no crazing or oxidation. Black bakelite grip plates are perfect with no cracks or chips. Polished blade shows light runner marks/faint shadowing on the lower 1/3 of blade with much cross-graining remaining and no nicks to the cutting edge, nor damage to the blade tip. The blade is complete with a tan felt blade buffer pad. Dent-free steel scabbard retains 100% of the original black enamel with no lifting, crazing or oxidation to the shell. A Near MINT HJ cloisonné grip insignia is properly PINNED, and wiggles to the touch, on the obverse scabbard. Scabbard is complete with black leather belt loop/hanger/grip strap in Near MINT/MINT condition. Copies of the veteran estate documentation are included with the knife. Superb example of a RARE veteran estate,"war booty" DJ knife. Near MINT/MINT (26227) $895. SOLD

    He cites a modern reference book which shows, I assume, pictures of a 'DJ' knife - not period documentary evidence and not a period photo. He cites a veteran. He cites the year 1946. He cites documentation showing that this vet brought the knife back (or that he shipped the item back to the US).

    Assuming that all of this stacks up we can be sure of only one thing: that the knife dates to 1946. That's it.

    I haven't seen the vet document of course but from those that I've seen they do not describe the items being sent back to such an extent that one could positively identify a particular item and separate it from another item of the same type. Going on those that I've seen they would, I contend, simply say 'knife' or perhaps even 'small knife'. Does the documentation say 'DJ knife'? Did this US soldier know the knife in 1946 as a 'DJ knife'? How does Mr Johnson know to call this a 'DJ knife'? Was the term simply invented or did he see 'Deutsches Jungvolk Fahrtenmesser' on a period label or in a period catalogue or in a period regulation? Or did he, another dealer or indeed a collector simply make the term up?

    Mr Shea at ruptured duck prefers the cautious 'available to the DJ' in the item description for the knife he's currently selling. He stops short of saying 'used by', 'issued to' but he's perfectly happy nevertheless to sell it as a 'DJ knife'. It's just that he doesn't want to get toooo specific. It was 'available' to the DJ. What does that mean exactly? Rhetorical question...

  3. #133

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    Garry, I have the book and the pic shows a "DJ" knife. It is not a period pic, and was shot for the book.

    The description says:

    "DJ Fahrtenmesser (German Youth Knife). Authorised for wear by members of the Deutches Jungvolk (German Youth) in the HJ until the age fourteen at which time, they joined the HJ".

    So, this must mean that their "DJ" knives were replaced with an HJ knife when they turned fourteen. So, there should be thousands of these knives in existence, however, they are all described as "rare variants". The story doesn't stack up. This goes against the period photo I took from a documentary, showing DJ boys receiving the standard HJ knife and cross strap.

    We've covered this before in this thread, and Mr johnson feels sure he had a document to back this statement up. However, he can't locate it.

    It is interesting that both Tom and Ron mention the tan/brown felt washer. Everyone knows these two chaps do their motel buys together, as Ron is always showing their latest hauls. Synchronised stories.

    This is just another classic case of "buying the story, not the item".

    Regards

    Russ

  4. #134
    Indeed Russ. One of the defenders of the 'DJ' knife (Bob) is deploying the 'experience over substance' argument currently. This is usually the last step before a thread is either closed or begins sliding down the list into obscurity.

  5. #135

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    Yes Garry, I agree. I'm pretty well done with the WAF thread now. It's re-hashing old ground again.

    If people want to keep paying for this junk, the dealers will continue to sell them.

    How unusual that most of the believers are dealers!

    Regards

    Russ

  6. #136
    I'm definitely done with it now. No relevant questions were answered by those who are 'for' these knives. I'm not surprised of course and yet again we have another opportunity wasted by certain parties to bring some clarity to the table.

  7. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Garry View Post
    I'm definitely done with it now. No relevant questions were answered by those who are 'for' these knives. I'm not surprised of course and yet again we have another opportunity wasted by certain parties to bring some clarity to the table.
    You know what happens when "relevant" questioned are answered.. People inevitably loose money. Best to keep the "what if.." door sligtly ajar, supported by the ring-of-friends who are always selling them, and will have a good word for them until their boxes of stock have been passed down to the willing.

  8. #138
    I'm quite surprised that they haven't booted me off WAF yet to be honest. It would be par for the course. The last time they booted me was for the same thing - asking questions no one wanted to see being asked. They said I was being rude to another member when I was booted but I have seen that rule being used very selectively in the past on WAF. I'm sure I'm not alone in that...

  9. #139
    I have just sort of been watching, but when stating that a photo of a member wearing the round member pin was touted as proof that the HJ knife was introduced in the twenties I could not sit idly any longer. That's just outright speculation and it's impossible to precisely date a photo on that alone.

  10. #140
    That's right Darin. And Ron Weinand accuses the knife sceptics of spreading 'misinformation'.... He refuses to accept (and has refused in the past) that this photo is not evidence for either pre-1933 knives or for those big knives with the engraved handles and blades. One standard for them and another for everyone else it would seem.

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