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  1. #11

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    Thanks guys
    One of my HJ is marked 1939 with motto.
    It's possible that it was made by the end of 1938 for future sales in 1939?


    mini-HJ Pack 1939 002.JPG mini-HJ Pack 1939 008.JPG mini-HJ Pack 1939 010.JPG mini-HJ Pack 1939 011.JPG

  2. #12
    Going by what that knife is telling us, it seems to be proof that manufacturers were indeed working within a period of grace (going into 1939) granted by the RZM after the order to discontinue the motto was promulgated.

    I know that some are of the opinion that any knife with motto that is also marked with the year 1939 must be a fake but the questions must be asked are these:

    how realistic is it to assume that manufacturers instantly switched to production of knives (without motto) in September 1938.
    how realistic is the assumption that existing stocks of motto blades were melted down when the order was promulgated?

    As I mentioned in post #1, the RZM published HJ knife manufacturing instructions on 14.9.1935 which stated that knives should have the 'Blut und Ehre' motto and that they should be marked with the RZM symbol, M7 maker number and year of manufacture but in the various lists describing early, transitional and late knives, this change is attributed to knives produced between 1936 and 1938. If the compilers of these lists are happy to attribute a knife made in accordance with this new instruction to 1936 rather than to 1935 then why should a knife with motto and the year 1939 be necessarily wrong? In essence, what I'm getting at is this:

    14.9.1935: RZM markings are introduced for HJ knives. These knives are however invariably lumped into the band 1936-38 in modern books and on websites.

    19.8.1938: the motto is discontinued. The lists now do not give any leeway and put RZM-marked knives with no motto strictly into 1938.

    To understand the sequence of events better, it would be very useful to know more about how these knives were made and to establish, for example, whether etching was a single step during production (RZM symbol, year and motto all added at the same time i.e. is it possible that blades had the motto applied first and in a further process the RZM symbol and MM?) and whether any special equipment (jigs for example) were required to get that motto onto the blade (I'm thinking here of things that may have made it difficult for manufacturers to quickly comply with the 19.8.1938 order). It seems logical that the etching was done in one step but logic isn't enough on its own to make a definitive statement on the validity of 1939 knives with motto. Making a descision based on that one thing alone is just as bad as those who go simply by the date of the order and say "impossible that a knife can have the motto and '1939' on it!"

    Hopefully Russ and Scott will give their opinion on the knife in post 1 from a blade collector's point of view. As the owner of just one beat-up old Puma I'm not best placed to comment in that regard :)

  3. #13
    Yes some fresh blood, someone who does not collect or sell, but preferably works in the industry. Maybe there even is dealer out there who has researched the manufacturing process with these? and not just collected and sold according to fish-wife tales.
    Your one knife trumps my none, so you have a head start. I spent a while today on u-toob looking for a few hints, i didnt find any, all i found were videos of dealers making themselves look amateur by babbling on about absolute rubbish.

    If these "Late" period knives, the knives that have a RZM stamp and number yet no date, are real, then there will need to be a mention somewhere that the date was no longer required, right? The date was stamped on from 1936 onwards, so by say 1939-1940, there can be no excuse for a maker not knowing, or forgetting... what category do collectors put these into?

  4. #14

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    Good thread. Its true what you say, when you look at the checklists on other forums or dealer sites it looks like everything was like strictly organised: 1936 bang! knife changes, 1938, bang! knife changes.Things can't have been like that

  5. #15

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    I like the example shown by Stingray. I do believe that existing stocks of mottoed blades would have been used - it was a business, so trashing them doesn't make sense to me.

    A couple of other 'oddball' variations to include are the knives that are maker marked, but RZM'd to a different manufacturer. Possible explanation could be that a fellow manufacturer ran low on stocks and purchased already maker marked blades from another business, but added their own RZM mark to conform to the regulations. I have a list of these somewhere, so I'll try and find it.

    Also, all of the Grawiso and Grafrath blades I've seen have been stamped with a 1936 date on the ricasso, both with, and without motto.



  6. #16

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    Looking closely at Stingray's knife, it seems that the etch of the RZM mark and the date are different in terms of depth and colour. Could well just be the pics but perhaps these were done at different times. It is certainly an interesting example, but it doesn't have the RZM code, just the date which is curious.


    Last edited by RussellM; 26th January 2013 at 06:16 AM.

  7. #17

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    Thanks Russ

    The maker mark is stamped and the RZM with a year is etched,same as they used on late 1937 and 1938. I have never seen RZM code on Pack HJ knives and i don't think they ever used them.


  8. #18

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    Yes, another example that bucks the system, but is correct! Thanks for showing it.



  9. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by crack View Post
    Good thread. Its true what you say, when you look at the checklists on other forums or dealer sites it looks like everything was like strictly organised: 1936 bang! knife changes, 1938, bang! knife changes.Things can't have been like that
    I doubt whether this is any one persons fault. It is just something that was once said, and has been adopted as gospel by everyone else. Why? because it is easier to just run with the someone else, and ride off their reputation. Parrot what they wrote long ago. Tell the same lie over and over and eventually it will become truth. Saves doing any in-depth research either.
    Anyway, this thread is for you guys, i was shocked by what i read/watched on u-toob last night, with dealers, who dagger collectors swear blind are the best, talking about absolute rubbish. Embarrassing really, so before i get accused of going after "another name" i will bow out from this thread and let the "Professionals" take over.

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