Klaus Butschek should know better. Fake HJ membership badge for sale

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I don't know why he doesn't want to register. Could be any number of reasons.
 
Yes, and the item description does not say that the case is not belonging to the award.. then again, i bet that most of the cases and badges today have nothing to do with each other, its the story !!!!! sometimes a case os worth more.. and then when both items are married, a small detail like the fact that they are married, is not important to many collectors. If it could be found out that HE did it, or knew about it, it would be reason enough for me to never shop with him again, then again, i am sure my account is deleted at his site anyway because of this thread, thats just how some dealers are when they catch you talking bad about their sales... Niemann was the same, he even posted this at WAF once, that anyone who talks bad about him, he will never sell to again... maybe a reason why 99% of collectors shut up and dont want to talk bad, even though they know the dealers are ...well.... censored !! they just want to carry on as usual and so this stuff will happen all day long.

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Yes. It would seem that this badge didn't originally have a case and as you say, this isn't mentioned in the listing. Not a big deal when items are married up like this if the items are genuine but common courtesy would normally dictate that the prospective buyers are put in the picture.
 
Garry said:
Yes. It would seem that this badge didn't originally have a case and as you say, this isn't mentioned in the listing. Not a big deal when items are married up like this if the items are genuine but common courtesy would normally dictate that the prospective buyers are put in the picture.
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Garry, if i had mouths to feed, and bills to pay with the sales of Militaria, then i guess, i would also be inclined to look on the side of "honesty" that better favors my wallet, and not the collectors peace of mind. Besides, even if Butcheck DID say they did not belong together, how do we know, that 70, or 53 years ago maybe both DID belong to each other? LOL,.... So maybe honesty looses money? if he said that they were married, then maybe that might put a perspective buyer off? by saying nothing, he leave the door open for the collector to think that both did belong together. Look into my eyes..... yes they did, yes they did, yes they did..SOLD..to the highest bidder.

Besides, how many guys, who have pieced together HJ sieger badges into cases, or any other badge and case, will SAY SO when it comes time to sell?? i can tell you how many ZERO ! Its not so much about what is said, like Johnson and Witmann with their "Now this is definite proof" BS... but more about saying just the right amount without telling all the details.....
 
Metallwarenfabrik said:
btw; its from one of Morigis production runs, with the same markings used on the SSFM, SS-zivilabzeichen etc etc.
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And here is the Repro-SSFM that i mentioned a few months ago, being sold right now on MILI321 as exactly what it is, a copy.

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Metallwarenfabrik said:
how many guys, have pieced together HJ sieger badges into cases, or any other badge and case, will SAY SO when it comes time to sell?? i can tell you how many ZERO !
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hope this isnt a dig at anyone in particular i.e me as with all the diff type of cased badges you just happened to pick these ,maybe im being paranoid but it will not be the first time you had a go, all the cased siegers i have came in those awards i have never bought an empty case and added a badge to it. believe it or not its bloody hard to find a empty case for a sieger badge
 
Stu...p.a.r.a.n.o.i.a..

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Garry said:
I think that it's totally different if a collector hunts for a case to go with a badge. What I don't think is okay is how dealers, in this case Mr Butschek, don't tell the customer that the set is not matched (I'm referring to the gold wound badge mentioned earler in the thread which did not have a case but then suddenly appeared inside one when offered for sale by Butschek).
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I have to give this dealer the benefit of the doubt(s) on this one, i think its just accepted amongst collectors that a cased badge will likely have been put together at some stage.. like dagger collectors will have to switch off the part of their brain that says "your dagger could be a parts-dagger" because in all reality, it probably is! so just ignore the smallities and collect!
C`mon, the Dealers we have are today are doing it, so what has been going on with the collectibles since 1945? 67 long years of marrying, exchanging, buffing, fixing, twisting.... with loads of Blah-blah in between to reassure
If its Honesty we are looking for, then we are in the wrong hobby! The only Honesty will be found in a YMCA soup kitchen, with everyone at the same level and no cash involved!!
 
Damn. You quoted the post just before I deleted it :) I misread Stu's post and was just re-phrasing a correction to mine. No matter. Yes, I would agree with you. As long as the parts are original I guess it's no big deal. It's just that when the marriage of case and badge is this obvious (Butschek) it kinda rankles a bit I think.
 
Stu,

If your badges are all in their original cases - :thumbup:

If a couple of them aren't - still :thumbup:.

You hunted high and low for your fantastic RBWK collection and it's the envy of many of us. This is more about the grey area where sellers aren't always totally open about stuff when they sell it. No one here doubts your integrity mate.
 
Would just like to tag one more image onto this thread, seeing as an identical badge like the one that started this thread off from Klaus Butschek. is now listed for sale as Genuine at MILI321.

Below; a complete Fantasy SS-Zivilabzeichen - and the reverse markings? :lol: they all come from the same forger, and are actually quite easily recognizable. But as we have seen, Dealers like Klaus Butschek have no problem selling them as original, as well as others .......

Extra images are the HJ badge for sale on MILI321 right now, as ORIGINAL ! which it is not!

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Here are the reverses of all three next to each other. Same set-up, same forger, two are Repros and the SS is a fantasy invention.

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Hi guys i have seen a few HJ Diomands latley on Dealers sites.All marked Otto Hoffman my dear god ,this has been a name for Fake for a long time.
These people know ,for sure they do.I am also convinced some even buy the fakes direct from the fakers.I have trouble trusting them.
I must say in the defence of some ,if they themselves are members of certain forums.You stand a very good chance of not getting screwed.I know of 4 and have never heard a bad word about them.
At a fair in the UK i have told a dealer that an SS badge is a total fake as it was never made.He STILL is selling it.And the last time i said it he said ,(so you think you are an expert do you).It was never made (DICK ).My regards guys
 
I found this thread after I was reading that huge WAF thread (love-Fest) about Klaus B. Everyone praising quick dispatch of items and great packaging but not talking about fakes on his site. How can he not know about Morigi??
 
Trommeller said:
I found this thread after I was reading that huge WAF thread (love-Fest) about Klaus B. Everyone praising quick dispatch of items and great packaging but not talking about fakes on his site. How can he not know about Morigi??
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Nothing unusual here at all, you`ll find similar posts pertaining to many dealers... even when they screw up real bad, and list stuff like the HJ Axe.
 
Well i guess we should all take stock here.As Jo and the more experinced among us can spot a fake easy.There are more joining the hoby that arnt.
Yes it is up to the buyer to be sure before buying.In my view there is a great deal of the seller should know also what he sells.
I mean come on these guys have been selling this stuff for decades.Is it right to take a few thousand Euro from a new collector before he or she gets wise.no not to me it isnt.The newbees to this hoby are always going blind at it .
I know this to my own cost .we all learn but is it right to take a persons money.
we need to make more of these buggers accountable for their actions.
Dont forget gents if we loose our next generaton of collectors our hobby dies.i know several people that left this hoby finding out the stuff they had was crap.
Klaus if you are watching .You need a good kick in the nuts.Well several rearly.
Get your head on and clear your act up.
all the best Pete
 
Yes but Pete, we surely need to be a bit more lenient with this guy, listing a "known fake" badge amongst many original items is a sin of course, but it happens all the time. "Known" fake to who? it it obvious that this dealer does not actually participate on any forum, but rather only uses them to advertise his site and stock. A mistake yes, but when it comes time to gather dealers for the annual Burning at the stake, Johnson should be the first, after his HJ axe, that is just plain ridiculous, and a clear signal to his customers and those visiting his site that he just does not give a rats ass about history and will use every opportunity he can to fleece people. There is a difference, at least to me anyway.
 
Yes you are right Jo.
It is a shame in this hoby there is such a great big mine field to the newcommer.I like many walked blind into it.
I was taken for a few thousand from various dealers in the early days.Didnt realise till well down the road and they wouldnt take anything back.
Just airing some pent up anger.I am so glad that a real nice guy took me under his wing just before i threw it all in and went back to the imperial side.
Damm glad i didnt.I just wish we could get to the new commers before they got to the bastards and idiots in this hoby.
A big breath and aaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.My ying and yang is now restored.Take care one and all.
As ever my best regards Pete
 
I also almost gave up before I'd really started collecting after being blatantly ripped off by a money above all else type dealer.
But i was lucky enough to get to know some fellow collectors who steered me in the right direction (god bless em!).

99% of dealers aren't experts, so if a fake badge appears for sale on one of their sites then they shouldn't be blamed, unless they refuse to withdraw it from sale when they've been told that it's definitely 'wrong', in which case they deserve everything that's coming to them :sneaky2: .
 
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