yes very odd maybe they just do not want the evil swastika to be seen eh ?? might offend someone
Christopher Ailsby and the Golden HJ Honour Badge with Oak leaves.
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The swastika has to be covered up at German shows anyway...Paul, i think it has to do with the German Law. It`s forbidden to sell Fakes/Copies in Germany, maybe they dont want to get "officially" caught out? or as you say, maybe something to hide?
Just for your information: today I saw about a dozen of the
Golden HJ Honour Badge with Oak leaves
at the militaria-fair in Reichertshofen at different dealers.
After having read this thread the prices for these fakes seem ridiculous.
It is good to have this forum, thank you all.
The Big problem here, is that when Dealers like Helmut Weite, list Fakes like the one they have up now for €3500.- all the other smaller side-line dealers, and dealer-wanna-Bees think that Xmas has come early, and it gives them a great opportunity to list their identical fakes, at say €2000.- or less, and when someone challenges them, they point to Weitze and use the fact that they have one listed as Proof that it is real. The same goes for dealers like Collectors Guild. These Big Names carry Loads of good stock too, and have a name, so there are still many collectors young and old who blindly believe them, and will therefore pay Top dollar for fakes, just because a Name has the same one listed.
Not forgetting Authors who continue to Publish rubbish, this also helps the dealers to shift their stuff, especially when Absurd claims are made like "They were available in Gold, silver and zinc, and in various forms and shapes by many makers/jewelers etc etc..... This leaves the door wide open for anyone, to basically use these false claims, and add on their own twist....
I dont think many people are interested in facts anymore, and are happy to just ride along on the Big Names and their claims. This must change !
The Silver-Gold 835. HJ Golden (or silver) Oak leaf badge ..
Pictured to the left here (click on it), is an identical HJ-Oak leafy Gold badge, marked 835 silver and apparantly Fire Gilded, exactly the same as the one in your book. Mr Ailsby, you surely cant have any doubts that this badge is Authentic, seeing as you were the one commenting on the thread about it in July 2007 on WAF. (The thread can be viewed here) I like the part where "stan" is a bit sceptical, until you come in and say that there were three versions... you settled it for him there and then, without anyone asking you to expand on what you said. "stans" reply was "That then solves the mystery". Anyway, enough about stan, and on to the point, your quote above. Oh but yes it is, shown in your book, you own the same badge as pictured here, and you have Claimed that these 835 silver/gold plated badges are Real, extremely scare, and a "known" variation.
How does this tie in with this badge being the same as "Weitzes" one, or the others that you so readily agreed with me a few posts back were Reproductions. (see post 69) well the boarder is a bit different, finer, better craftsmanship, and the planchet is stamped 835. of course, and the needle fixture is different... But, there is always a but, the HJ Diamond, the separate diamond planchet .. is EXACTLY the same as those found on the modern Fakes.
The only Logical explanation here, based on the above facts, is that the 835. marked HJ Oak leaf badge, is an early Reproduction, possibly first generation, and that the person making them, is still using the same HJ Diamond die today on the more modern repros like i cut up and pictured a few posts back.. Fakers do not copy each Dot, and get the size, proportion and setting identical, it just does not happen, there are no examples you could find where this has ever occurred. What i can show you though, that occurred, are first generation fakes of the Hitlerbewegung enamel badge made decades ago, real high class craftsmanship, nothing like your modern Fakes.. and i can show you Modern fakes of the Hitlerbewegung badge, easy to spot as fake, where the faker has used the same Old dies. Different material, different time, but same old fake dies.
Pictured below, are the Fake Weitze, my fake, and the Gold-Silver-835 badge from the WAF thread, which is identical to that of Mr Ailsbys. All three, are Identical, there is not a shadow of a doubt, that the same die was used on all of them.Lets also not forget to mention, that the Link i showed, of the HH badge that sold for €5500.- in solid gold, does not look like this, the Diamond is not the same, the pattern/stippling is different, and it was certainly not done using the same die as the above three were. What does this tell you? What Paul said a few pages back about these being only made in solid gold, well i am with him 100% on that. I don't see someone paying 5,500 for a badge that was so common that it was available in different materials, different forms..... The person who bought this, knows what he bought. There is also no definite proof that 200-250 were ever awarded, it could be that there were 20-40...maybe less? until now nobody has really bothered to look, or publish/make known, what they have as far as award numbers and names goes....
Well, take a deep breath. Nothing like evidence to settle a debate.
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Pictured to the left here (click on it), is an identical HJ-Oak leafy Gold badge, marked 835 silver and apparantly Fire Gilded, exactly the same as the one in your book. Mr Ailsby, you surely cant have any doubts that this badge is Authentic, seeing as you were the one commenting on the thread about it in July 2007 on WAF. (The thread can be viewed here) I like the part where "stan" is a bit sceptical, until you come in and say that there were three versions... you settled it for him there and then, without anyone asking you to expand on what you said. "stans" reply was "That then solves the mystery". Anyway, enough about stan, and on to the point, your quote above. Oh but yes it is, shown in your book, you own the same badge as pictured here, and you have Claimed that these 835 silver/gold plated badges are Real, extremely scare, and a "known" variation.
How does this tie in with this badge being the same as "Weitzes" one, or the others that you so readily agreed with me a few posts back were Reproductions. (see post 69) well the boarder is a bit different, finer, better craftsmanship, and the planchet is stamped 835. of course, and the needle fixture is different... But, there is always a but, the HJ Diamond, the separate diamond planchet .. is EXACTLY the same as those found on the modern Fakes.
The only Logical explanation here, based on the above facts, is that the 835. marked HJ Oak leaf badge, is an early Reproduction, possibly first generation, and that the person making them, is still using the same HJ Diamond die today on the more modern repros like i cut up and pictured a few posts back.. Fakers do not copy each Dot, and get the size, proportion and setting identical, it just does not happen, there are no examples you could find where this has ever occurred. What i can show you though, that occurred, are first generation fakes of the Hitlerbewegung enamel badge made decades ago, real high class craftsmanship, nothing like your modern Fakes.. and i can show you Modern fakes of the Hitlerbewegung badge, easy to spot as fake, where the faker has used the same Old dies. Different material, different time, but same old fake dies.
Pictured below, are the Fake Weitze, my fake, and the Gold-Silver-835 badge from the WAF thread, which is identical to that of Mr Ailsbys. All three, are Identical, there is not a shadow of a doubt, that the same die was used on all of them.
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WARLORD
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As a rather quick reply, the silver guilded piece, which you sugest is my invention, I would draw your attention to Dr Klietmann' book Deutsche Auszeichungen published in 1971 were on page 267 note 96 2: he describs the badge as Silber - vergoldet und auf der VS. emailliert. Measurements Breite: 19,5 mm Hohe: 32,5mm.
As to the silver Party badge and Run stern I will post latter.
As to the silver Party badge and Run stern I will post latter.
They are just books......
Yes, the same as you have described lots of fantasy and fake items in your 2010 book.... just coz its printed, doesn`t make it so. Are you not following my posts on this thread? are you not seeing what facts, and research are doing to you? You were slapped down so hard on the Fake Lauer golden badge a few post ago with a simple period document, above again with the fake Silver-golden HJ badge..... and now want to move on to the Rune star, and silver party badge? without even aknowledging the fact that you have been proven wrong ? FACTS, something period, something to support your claims, i have said this many times now, NOT what you think, not what someone wrote, told you etc... just basic simple facts, and you cant bring any...why? the answer is above, and clear for anyone who is interested to see..... it`s a fake ! an old fake, but still a fake. You are missing the point, whatever is published, from whoever, is not backed up with anything other than opinion, thats a fact. As for the silver-golden party badge and Golden party badge rune star, you are flogging a dead horse, posting pictures of fantasy badges that history does not support, and that everyone has already told you is Muppetry. (Axis forum, 2005 you were told this about the Lauer fake GPB, and silver party badge from avid GPB collectors, but refused to believe it, and published the fake and fantasy badges 5 years later as Real)
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I follow your thinking. What about this?
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Yes, pretty crapy article innit? First side, last para- Once you are awarded any one of those 4 badges, it means an automatic membership in the NSDAP......... 
For the sake of the forum, lets stick to the HJ oak leaf here, and after you have proven the Silver and Zinc, then we shall move on, and debunk the rest.
Why do you refuse to answer any direct question posed to you ? and try and worm your way out of answering questions by posting more nonsense, and quoting from other books that are just as misguided as yours, and full of rubbish.
Factually you have zero in your hands regarding everything you have said and published about these.
For the sake of the forum, lets stick to the HJ oak leaf here, and after you have proven the Silver and Zinc, then we shall move on, and debunk the rest.
Why do you refuse to answer any direct question posed to you ? and try and worm your way out of answering questions by posting more nonsense, and quoting from other books that are just as misguided as yours, and full of rubbish.
Factually you have zero in your hands regarding everything you have said and published about these.
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I'm afraid Jörg Nimmergut Is also not the best reference. He received a lot of critics from Klaus Patzwall because of his rich fantasy and lack of sources. Patzwall is one of the very few authors that really do his homework before he's writing something on paper.
Regards, Wim
You agreed that Patzwall was a good researcher a few posts back, there you go then, Patzwall slams The name mentioned in your article over and over again in more than one book, with reference to the HJ oak leaf as well :closedeyes: you also stated in the linked post above that you did not know Nimmergut, so why are you posting one of his articles here? what could this possibly prove? especially seeing as Nimmerguts reputation, and Plenty of what he has claimed, just like you, has been Smashed by people like Patzwall, and Hüsken. The man has been proven wrong, proven that he published crap and made up figures, proven that he writes about things he does not research fully.
Enough monkeying around, please start answering the questions posed to you. Lets start here....
Do you not find it strange, that people like Patzwall and Hüsken, do not support the theory of multiple designs, and various metals, but both only support the Solid Gold with Oak leaf border as seen on the HH auction picture, or, if you will, border as seen on the Todt funeral pillow? They both present facts and figures, slam Nimmerguts assumptions and have published their research, which is a damn sight more than you have done. You have trolled around the net for years now, assuming various patterns, various metals, various jewelers, various catches, various ways of attaching the Diamond to the planchet, various usages for the various pieces and so on, and have even published these claims in 2010 in your Book supported with not one single factual piece of evidence, or similar occurrence or document, a book which is riddled full of known crap into the bargain, and you expect the collecting community of 2011 to believe you ? to listen to you, to take you seriously ? Please start to get serious, start by simply answering the questions above in the box. That is surely not too much to ask, i have invested my time here, Debunking your HJ variant badge with Proof, Debunking your Lauer GPB with Proof, so please return the Favor and answer my few, simple questions.
Enough monkeying around, please start answering the questions posed to you. Lets start here....
Do you not find it strange, that people like Patzwall and Hüsken, do not support the theory of multiple designs, and various metals, but both only support the Solid Gold with Oak leaf border as seen on the HH auction picture, or, if you will, border as seen on the Todt funeral pillow? They both present facts and figures, slam Nimmerguts assumptions and have published their research, which is a damn sight more than you have done. You have trolled around the net for years now, assuming various patterns, various metals, various jewelers, various catches, various ways of attaching the Diamond to the planchet, various usages for the various pieces and so on, and have even published these claims in 2010 in your Book supported with not one single factual piece of evidence, or similar occurrence or document, a book which is riddled full of known crap into the bargain, and you expect the collecting community of 2011 to believe you ? to listen to you, to take you seriously ? Please start to get serious, start by simply answering the questions above in the box. That is surely not too much to ask, i have invested my time here, Debunking your HJ variant badge with Proof, Debunking your Lauer GPB with Proof, so please return the Favor and answer my few, simple questions.
Here are the pictures of the Solid Gold badge at HH, that sold for €5100.- (not €5500.- as i previously stated) or $7000.- in 2009.
You can compare the pictures, and pattern of both the stippling and border, and you will see that it was not made using the same die as the above fakes were.
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golden HJ honour badge with oak leaves
Hi,
what do you think about that rare badge? Material silver (stamped 835), gold plated? Number 170 could be ok (lower than ~400).
Thanks for comments!
Hi,
what do you think about that rare badge? Material silver (stamped 835), gold plated? Number 170 could be ok (lower than ~400).
Thanks for comments!
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And the rarities come a-rollin-in 
Same thing happened recently on the SA Silver Birds head dagger thread on WAF... incredibly rare, only one known to exist, until the thread developed... then they came pouring in from all 4 corners.
Garry, any chance of merging this post to the Oak leaf thread ?
http://www.hj-research.com/forum/f28/golden-hj-honour-badge-oak-leaves-741/
I don't believe this badge has a hope in hell of being real. I don't believe they were numbered (the Solid gold examples seen to date are not numbered with the awarded number, and i don't believe there were 400, or even 250 awarded. I agree with Patzwall and Hüsken that they were only made in solid gold, and that only a few were awarded, 20-40 possibly.
Same thing happened recently on the SA Silver Birds head dagger thread on WAF... incredibly rare, only one known to exist, until the thread developed... then they came pouring in from all 4 corners.
Garry, any chance of merging this post to the Oak leaf thread ?
http://www.hj-research.com/forum/f28/golden-hj-honour-badge-oak-leaves-741/
I don't believe this badge has a hope in hell of being real. I don't believe they were numbered (the Solid gold examples seen to date are not numbered with the awarded number, and i don't believe there were 400, or even 250 awarded. I agree with Patzwall and Hüsken that they were only made in solid gold, and that only a few were awarded, 20-40 possibly.
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I thought I'd add the one currently listed on the forthcoming Hermann Historica auction......
Cheers
Don
Cheers
Don
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t
While we are on about HH, here is a fake GPB they sold in 2009
I guess Mr Ailsby now has extra info for his nex book in 2012....
Made using the same die as in post 110. A clear fake.
While we are on about HH, here is a fake GPB they sold in 2009
I guess Mr Ailsby now has extra info for his nex book in 2012....
although he already stated that they were all jeweler made?' oh dear... confusion... time to put pen to paper.......
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and what the hell is that? Fake or unknown variant. It has a rahter crude appereance and has traces of gilding. The reverse has at least the name correctly spelled with the points on the "U".
However, I'm glad I get only involved with the "common" HJ honor award
It`s the only known example of a Deschler badge that has the Name hand engraved into the reverse and not incorporated into the die.and what the hell is that?
It`s Pooh Wim, that's what it is.
Compare the HH desch- badge to mine and the fake Weitze one, edzackery the same dies
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It`s the only known example of a Deschler badge that has the Name hand engraved into the reverse and not incorporated into the die.
It`s Pooh Wim, that's what it is.
Compare the HH desch- badge to mine and the fake Weitze one, edzackery the same dies
I see you're point, Jo. And considering the price these things go, its no problem to take the time for nice engraving work...