HJ Visor Cap with gold piping - opinions please

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peterB

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Hi

This is the latest cap I cannot find anything about. It is the gold piping and chinstrap that has me puzzled. I can find descriptions in various books of uniforms about silver piping and chinstrap, but none of gold.

The cap itself appears to be of v.good quality with cushioning for the forehead (the red bit on the RZM label picture). Also has a makers embossed stamp on the sweatband(?). I cannot make the embossing out and have included a picture of it in case someone has better eyes.

Opinions, suggestions?

Thanks

Edit Found a picture of a Gebietsführer cap which has the gold piping:
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Is this one?

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peterB said:
Hi

This is the latest cap I cannot find anything about. It is the gold piping and chinstrap that has me puzzled. I can find descriptions in various books of uniforms about silver piping and chinstrap, but none of gold.
Click to expand...

Silver was used for those in the leader corps up to the rank of Hauptbannfuhrer. Gold was for the ranks above that which were: Gebietsführer, Obergebietsführer and Stabsführer.
 
peterB said:
Hi, I can find descriptions in various books of uniforms about silver piping and chinstrap, but none of gold.
Click to expand...

Through the years there always were specific ranks wearing golden piping and so this continued in
1935/1936 and later years. A quick view in one of the Organisations-books of the NSDAP would have
told you.
I am practically sure Angolia (page 127 volume 1) and Littlejohn (page 58) and others will have told
about it as well! I doubt you have any proper book about the HJ and you try to find answers just through
this forum? So, my best advise is: buy some HY books and you will have lesser questions!In my handbook
I explain triangles and shoulder-straps/boards (no headgear). A quick look would have learned you who
did wear a piping in gold as they did wear this piping along the edges of the shoulder-boards.
 
wilhelm saris said:
I doubt you have any proper book about the HJ and you try to find answers just through
this forum?
Click to expand...

With respect this is harsh Wilhelm. The forum is great and many members have those books and other great infrmation so I think the forum is a very good place to ask because then you might not need to buy every book. At least here the memebers do put much weight in proper research this is not always the case on other forums.

Here Peter from the OB 1943 where you can see the gold colour mentioned before. It is second row last three ranks:
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Like Wilhelm said, earlier in the TR period and later gold was worn by other ranks for example Oberbannfüher on the staff and there were other instances but gold always showed high rank/appointment (not rocket science :biggrin1:)
 

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wilhelm saris said:
I am not harsh I establish just facts!!
It is easier to ask, then buying a book.
Books cost money, asking is for free
(forums also do cost money, but that
is a fact to neglect!)
Click to expand...

And these are just the books in English.

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Hello Peter B . You have the good books about the Hj (the 2vol of "the HJ" and the 3 vol of "youth led by youth " .You need now a lot of time to read and you will learn a lot !!
And if you have some money for the book of Wim (Saris ) it will be perfect ! It a big and nice book .
Every collector need research.
 
Wilhem, where are the "facts"? You can not lecture and then not provide the facts on the Mütze. Oh yes, you write a book for years about Kopfbedeckung I forgot... Whatever yes let us decide that this HJ forum is no use and let us buy the books. Wilhelm, why do you write here when all you wish is that your books be bought and Angolia and Johnson and others even if books can be overtaken by new research? You have no "Loyalität" and I see you on all forums (auch bei den schlechten) This is the forum for collectors of youth items where you should be "zuhause" but **** yes let us kill my favorite forum! No more subscription for me sorry.
 
Trommeller said:
Wilhem, where are the "facts"? You can not lecture and then not provide the facts on the Mütze. Oh yes, you write a book for years about Kopfbedeckung I forgot... Whatever yes let us decide that this HJ forum is no use and let us buy the books. Wilhelm, why do you write here when all you wish is that your books be bought and Angolia and Johnson and others even if books can be overtaken by new research? You have no "Loyalität" and I see you on all forums (auch bei den schlechten) This is the forum for collectors of youth items where you should be "zuhause" but **** yes let us kill my favorite forum! No more subscription for me sorry.
Click to expand...
Trommeller , just how is Wilhelm Saris killing this forum ? Mr Saris is one of this forums best assets , Yes he has written many books , however ; he has done the grunt work through years of research and knowledge that most of us can only wish to have embedded in our brains . personally , I would love to have Mr Saris help me out with a book I plan to write on HJ uniforms especially when they were authorized and what the regulations were, he is a wealth of information . You do what ever you need to do Trommeller but in my opinion you are wrong sir .
 
He is not killing this forum himself of course I did not mean this. I meant that PeterB was asking for information on a discussion forum and was arrogant told to go and buy books by a person who could easily answer the question. He made it sound like this forum is **** and I do not agree that only true informations can be found in his book and other books and nowhere else. Of course books are important but this is again a discussion forum where people ask questions and hope to get answers from others who know more about something. Or, people with great knowledge help other collectors. If this does not happen then what is the point of a forum?? So you are a moderator here who wishes to write a book too but why do you not write in the forum's wiki? Okay I have never entered information there either but I also do not have any plans to write a book..
 
Well Trommeller. You spread your opinion, in which I am not interested at all,
but apparently I am not allowed to do so. I simply should give facts? That's what
all want me to do. I have often given facts in the past. Just have a look!!
This forum is the best when it is related to the Hitler-Youth organization. There is
no doubt about it!

Yes, I easily could have answered the question and even include information from
old documentation. But a person should develop himself with knowledge and not
just ask. Is it arrogant when one says one should buy books? And why was this
person asking for a question which he himself could have solved. But for that he
he had to spend time with reading in the book he had. But just asking is quicker
and easier! Normally I help out collectors. You have no idea how many questions
I do answer. Not just from this forum, but also from other forums and when I am
mailed (which is done merely every day a few times). So please Trommeller do not
comment with just thoughtless remarks: "unbesonnenen Bemerkungen". You "kill"
the forum yourself........

I know many persons who intend to write a book, on various subjects, but after
10-15 years I have not seen any being published. Saying to write a book is one
thing; actually bringing one to an end is another. Trommeller you do not have
any idea how many persons did visit me through the years, to have a look in my
files and later be helped with copied material, as I do have files from practically
every organization that existed during the Third Reich. Hundreds and hundreds.
I wish you best luck in writing a book about HJ, but I will not help you out, as my
feelings tell me you are just a German querulant or "Stänker"! Be offended, I
do not care!

By the way, I do not care if my books are sold or not. I do not care about money.
I do write for those that really are interested in the subject and so spread some of
my information. Not interested, do not buy a book written by me!

Joecool: I had no idea you were planning a book about HJ? My book on HJ headgear
is delayed for many years, as no publisher does want to publish a book as thick as
my handbook. My planned headgear book for the HJ would result in at least two
volumes with about 500 pages each (and 600 or so photographs in each volume).
I cannot write about all of it in one book and so there was never a final decision
from the publisher. I insist on two volumes, as the HJ involved in schools would be
at least one seperate volume!
 
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It's okay to ask questions, but there are some who always ask and never contribute and it can be frustrating to some people. Wim does write books, but also helps here all the time. I don't think he was trying to make it seem as if the forum in not a great forum, or to sell his book, it sells itself to those with a keen interest. I think sometimes things can come off as being curt or short when people of many different languages post in one language on a forum also, as typing as message is much different than a face to face discussion. Trommeler if you no longer wish to be a member here that is your choice, but I would say step back and don't let a single discussion affect that decision. We all get along pretty well here and focus on proving items are correct. Many forums show bad items and say "Prove it's not correct". That is what set this forum apart in my opinion.
 
peterB said:
Hi

This is the latest cap I cannot find anything about. It is the gold piping and chinstrap that has me puzzled. I can find descriptions in various books of uniforms about silver piping and chinstrap, but none of gold.

The cap itself appears to be of v.good quality with cushioning for the forehead (the red bit on the RZM label picture). Also has a makers embossed stamp on the sweatband(?). I cannot make the embossing out and have included a picture of it in case someone has better eyes.

Opinions, suggestions?

Thanks

Edit Found a picture of a Gebietsführer cap which has the gold piping:
You don't have permission to view attachments.
Is this one?
Click to expand...

Hello,
if this cap is still in your possession, I would like to have a picture of the inside of this cap.
I would like to know if the cap still has its RHODOÏD ???
This is crucial to give my opinion ......!
 
WIDUKIND said:
Hello,
if this cap is still in your possession, I would like to have a picture of the inside of this cap.
I would like to know if the cap still has its RHODOÏD ???
This is crucial to give my opinion ......!
Click to expand...

Hi

I had to look up was a Rhodoid was!. You learn something new every day.

Yes it does have it. Picture attached. Please let me know if you need any other pictures/close-ups.

Cheers
Peter

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Hi,

thank you for your image. Here are some additional explanations and I hope that the translation is OK.:

- The Rhodoïds have a little yellowed after 60 years. This is perfectly logical and it should not worry you.
However, two details should not fool you ......
Is the Rhodoïd of this cap still brittle or breaking and cutting ?.

I experienced it a few years ago and I can certify that authentic rhodoïds are very cutting. My finger still remembers it.
The fakers have never managed to reproduce them.
Here is an example of an authentic rhodoïd :

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WIDUKIND said:
Hi,

thank you for your image. Here are some additional explanations and I hope that the translation is OK.:

- The Rhodoïds have a little yellowed after 60 years. This is perfectly logical and it should not worry you.
However, two details should not fool you ......
Is the Rhodoïd of this cap still brittle or breaking and cutting ?.

I experienced it a few years ago and I can certify that authentic rhodoïds are very cutting. My finger still remembers it.
The fakers have never managed to reproduce them.
Here is an example of an authentic rhodoïd :

You don't have permission to view attachments.
You don't have permission to view attachments.
Click to expand...

Hi

I have had a look and am still not sure. It does show a slight sign of yellowing but not sure if that is original colouring. It does seem to be a bit fragile.

Peter
 
Is this a good visor then chaps? Always difficult to judge just from photos I know.
 
No idea Garry, but the eagle is "played" with and looks if it
was painted. The "gold" is not gold, but looks beige. This is
best visible at the inner part of the wreath and between the
legs for the bird.

Neither the structure for the upper piping pleases me! But
this is just my opinion.
 
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