Let's talk about the 1932 1 NS Reichsjugendtag Potsdam badges

[Garry]

One question, well 2 questions. Do you know about why there are so many differences in the badge from the same maker?

When we look at the requirement for these badges I don't personally see a satisfactory explanation for the great number of variations we see today:

First wave of production: these would have been the badges Shirach ordered in mid-1932 and which were sold as fund-raisers leading up to the event. We know that Potsdam badges were also sold to spectators and participants during the two days of the event so it is perfectly possible that he ordered a top-up production run once he realised that Potsdam was going to be huge. However, would this have necessitated the making of new dies? Does anyone know more about the production process for badges like this? How many badges could a die on average produce before a new one was required?

Second wave: these were badges produced after the 2nd of October 1932 for distribution to those who did not buy or receive one during the event. That raises the question of when the badge was designated as an honour badge because that will give us an idea of when this next production run was initiated. Well, Schirach's intention with Potsdam was that it would act as PR for the NSDAP in the upcoming elections. The huge success of the event was indirectly instrumental in Hitler's eventual appointment as chancellor so I think we can assume that the Potsdam badge gained HJ honour status around Jan 1933. Certainly not too much after that anyway.

Third wave of production: all other badges which were produced in later years to satisfy the requirement for replacements. We know that they were still available for purchase through RZM outlets in 1937 because a regulation mentions this. However, the requirement for Potsdam badges became smaller with every passing year because of course the number of people eligible to wear the badge was finite. The various period accounts all give a total number of active participants of around 100,000. This then is the theoretical number of badges for which there would have been a requirement. Even if we add a further 100,000 to that number (a replacement badge for every active participant) how many dies would have been required to make 200,000 Potsdam badges? Should we be seeing 10 variations of MM placement today or just two or perhaps three? Should we be seeing Hoffstätter and Aurich badges? All food for thought and definitely impulses for further research. That article in 'Militaria Magazin' is woefully inadequate...

Can * Bekleidung und Ausruestung der HJ. Hitler-Jugend-Bewegung e.V. Berlin 1934 be here downloaded?

Yes

 

[Jo Rivett]

That raises the question of when the badge was designated as an honour badge because that will give us an idea of when this next production run was initiated. Well, Schirach's intention with Potsdam was that it would act as PR for the NSDAP in the upcoming elections. The huge success of the event was indirectly instrumental in Hitler's eventual appointment as chancellor so I think we can assume that the Potsdam badge gained HJ honour status around Jan 1933. Certainly not too much after that anyway.

The answer to this is 1933. (with no mention whatsoever of silver badges)
The answers to the other questions are going to be a lot more complicated.
My question to add to this lots is:
Apart from the special silver badge(s) where is it mentioned that Silver versions were produced? or that Silver versions where for Participants? and bronze for onlookers?

 

[Jo Rivett]

Also looking forward to reading about your experience with that dealer when you have time.

Naaa, i`m still livid m8.. will take a few weeks to get over this trick, that's for sure.
Anyway, onto the info.
In the NSDAP Book, Aufbau und Abzeichen (1933) there is mention of these. And as you will read, there is no mention of a silver version, or two versions.

Allen Angehörigen der NS-Jugendorganisation ist es zur Ehrenpflich gemacht, das Potsdamabzeichen (img. 98) zu tragen, sofern sie am 1. Reichsjugendtreffen teilgenommen haben.

Thats it i have scanned the other Jugend pages that you may find interesting (or not), but wont be scanning the whole book anytime shortly :001_tt2:

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[Garry]

My question to add to this lots is:
Apart from the special silver badge(s) where is it mentioned that Silver versions were produced? or that Silver versions where for Participants? and bronze for onlookers?

That is noted in 'Anzugordnung für das Führerkorps' dated 15.5.1937.

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Nice book by the way. From 1933? I have the 1934 issue here (it doesn't mention the silver badge either).

 

[Jo Rivett]

Yes, 1933
So them being made an Honor-badge, has nothing to do with the colors, well at least not in 1933.
And if the Silver badge was to be obtained though the RZM licensed sellers, as it states, then it was official, and should be RZM marked, just like the others were that later reached cult status.
Now why is there no mention of a class destinction between silver and bronze in 1932, 33, 34.. but reference to that they must be worn by participants. Then in 1937 only silver was to be worn by participants and bronze for those on the side lines? does not make sense.?

 

[Garry]

Found more on this Jo. 'Aufbau und Abzeichen der HJ' 1940 p86 says that both the silver and bronze versions existed at the time of the rally. So, it is looking more and more likely that only certain people, dignitaries, leaders whatever were presented with a silver badge on the day and that all others bought the bronze fund-raising version of the badge (or indeed didn't buy one as the photos show).

So, the silver version becomes an honour badge a little while after the event finished but hardly anyone has one so those who had a bronze badge simply wore that instead. That would explain the later regulation which forced everyone to wear silver. The reason for the early publications only mentioning one badge is possibly due to the fact that the bronze badge became obsolete after the silver badge had been granted honour status so perhaps they simply thought 'why bother mentioning bronze?'

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[Heran]

Hi Garry,

saw also that page in the book und not much information said. Im also trying to check if there is anything mentioned over this Abzeichen in Uniformen Markt, to be honest, i dont know where else to find.

Ah. i contacted Hoffstätter and, of course, they dont have any information about the period... or that is what they say. Hey it works for Spanish makers, more appochable.

Let me know if i can be any help

regards

Antonio

 

[Garry]

Actually I think that this new information is quite important because it proves that silver and bronze badges were being worn at the rally. No other source has said that explicitly up to now.

Now that we know about the existence of both silver and bronze at the rally the next step is to begin looking at the physical characteristics of the badges now in our collections. This is very probably going to prove difficult because we know that there are fakes out there and no one wants to find out that they have a fake. I don't really know how far we will get.

 

[Jo Rivett]

Garry... the slight problem here, is that this is suggesting that both were made at the same time, and that the bronze version was also a "Advertisement" piece, for the general public. If this is true, then you should be looking for identical looking, and marked, versions in sliver and bronze. The silver version would have been mentioned in the 1933 article when it was made "Pflicht" to wear them, as in post 24. If there was this 2 distinctions-class-version thing back in 1932, with the Silver being for active participants and the bronze only for onlookers, and even worse as you posted, as an "Advertisement" piece, then this would certainly have been mentioned. I personally cant place much faith in this 1940 article, it smells of typical Nazi confusion to me, and i dont see it being true at all. The 1933 excerpt says it all really, "Its now your Duty to wear the Potsdam 1932 badge on your uniform, as long as you were there and took part actively"-yet no mention that you have to wear the silver version and not the bronze version that was only for advertising, until 1940? No mention of different versions?

There would need to be many more silver badges today, if silver was indeed the Proper version, and bronze only for watchers and advertising. There would be clear mentions of this right from the beginning, if not from 1933 onward, were this the case. And when something like this, gained cult-status, like this did in 1933, then at the latest then, would it have been mentioned that the correct one to wear was Silver, and as we know, it does not.

This is a good example of where period proof, only serves to compound the problem. This is common, the more to look, the deeper you go, the more you get confused.

 

[stuart]

but then again it could be that thousands of bronze badges where produced to be sold at the rally but not many bought them so there where loads left over and thats why you see so many bronze thses days

 

[Garry]

Actually Stu I think that if anything there would have way too few badges available over the two days of the rally when you consider that over 50,000 more came than had originally been catered for.

Jo, I think that what is being said about the difference between silver (active participants) and bronze (spectator/non-active) in these various period sources was decided at a later date - not during the rally and not immediately after it either. I think that the reason for the early sources only showing one badge was because at that point it didn't matter which one people wore. Silver or bronze was irrelevant. The important thing was that they wore the Potsdam badge.

Once it had been stipulated that the silver version was the official badge it would have been necessary to produce them in larger numbers but how large? If the decision was made shortly after the event then there would have been a requirement for a larger number. If the decision was made a few years later then of course the requirement would not have been so high because many of those who were at the rally in 1932 would no longer have been members of the HJ and therefore would not have had a HJ uniform to wear and to which they could pin the badge.

It is clear from Schirach's autobiography that it would not have been possible to have compiled a record of exactly who took part in the rally actively other than the those participants who registered their intent to attend prior to the event. We know from Schirach himself that tens of thousands did so but the remainder did not. This is something that he would have had to consider when placing the order for the silver badges once he had designated it as the official honour badge. As I mentioned in another post, the regulation which shows the differentiation between silver and bronze also mentions that there was still no system (in May 1937) for ascertaining who was eligible to wear the badge so it remains unclear just how many silver badges were ordered and when.

I think that finding the answer to this conundrum will be greatly accelerated by finding the regulation which first explicitly states that the silver badge was the honour badge.

 

[Heran]

Hi All,

Well, just checking again the book “Youth led by Youth”, from Philip Baker, Volume 1, in the last part of it, it shows pages from the Book: “Uniformen der HJ, Vorschirft und Vorbild” (Diepenboick=Grüter & Schulz, 1933) published in 1933.

In page 2 from this book, we can see numerous insignia from the HJ and, also the Potsdam badge, represented in Silver. As you can see in the rest of the drawings, it shows the “normal” insignia associated to the HJ.

I don’t know if it means something or not, but I don’t think that this insignia is shown as “special”, but just as normal as the rest of the insignia taken.

Could it mean that it was carried in the event for more people than just for a few?

Regards

Antonio

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[WIDUKIND]

I think so....!

 

[Garry]

No chaps, the badge is being shown because it was an honour badge.

What would be great is if we could establish exactly when the change to honour badge status took place and whether that regulation/order stipulated that silver was the honour badge at that stage.

 

[Heran]

Hi All,

Well, I found a little bit more information about the Badge. En el Organizationsbuch der NSDAP published in 1937 (Zentralverlag der NSDAP, Franz Eher Nachf, Muenchen) shows the Potsdam Badge in page 61 and the comment that it was the Badge for the Participants.

See picture attached.

Regards

Antonio

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[Heran]

Hi All,

I got today also the book: „Die Uniformen und Abzeichen der SA, SS, und des Stahlhelm Brigade Ehrhardt, Amswalter, Abgeordnete, NSBO und NSKK“. But I can’t really see the year. I will upload a couple of pages from it.

But have you seen the colour of the Potsdam Badge?

Regards

Antonio

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[Jo Rivett]

Thats a nice little book.

 

[Jo Rivett]

Bronze silver-washed example, with no markings.. not mine, i found it on the net.

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[wilhelm saris]

Quite a nice discussion about this badge. When I remember well I haven't seen
this included drawing and information here.

It was published in "Bekleidung und Ausrüstung der Hitler-Jugend", the
official uniform-regulation from the RJF der NSDAP (1934), with the date as
January 15, 1934. The drawing was on page 84.

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Further the complete text from page 86 from "Aufbau und Abzeichen der Hitler-Jugend"
with the stand for April 1940. Here it is noted who had to wear silver and who earlier
did wear the bronze version. This version was later not allowed to be worn, as it in fact
was nothing more then a tinnie, while the silver version was an official NSDAP-insignia.

 

[wilhelm saris]

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