SA or HJ buckle?

[Lebensgefahr]

Hello everyone.

I recently found these items. The buckle made of brass plate with the eagle made of nickel-plated brass. It is 45 mm buckle.
One guy in this thread dated this type of a buckle (19015 wich is similar but not the same) by 1926

https://www.warrelics.eu/forum/sa-buckles-nskk-nsfk/origins-sturmabteilung-buckle-115186/

They almost certainly belonged to the same person. As far as I know, there is about a four-year gap between the introduction of the two badges. Based on that, I estimated the owner's birth year to be around 1915–1916. I'm trying to identify the owner because I have a rough idea of who might have lived at this location.

Initially, I assumed these items represented different periods of the owner's life (HJ badges is one, rank stars, and an SA buckle another). However, I recently discovered that all of these items could actually have been worn together by a member of the Hitler Youth (HJ).

File:FHM-282358 Hitler Youth (Hitlerjugend) HQ-building Berlin (Haus der Reichsjugendfuhrung? Ost-Berlin c 1933-36) Press office uniformed boys HJ swastika flag papers BDM chart. Nazi propaganda photo (Frihedsmuseet Nationalmuseet Denmark).jpg - Wiki

commons.wikimedia.org

In this photo, both of these badges are visible (one on the cap and the other on the chest), and the rank stars can also be seen. In the photo with the documents, the buckles have the HJ diamond attached, but in the photo with the map, you can see the lower edge of the buckle worn by the person with one rank star, and there is no HJ diamond on it.

The photographs are dated to approximately 1933–1936.

My questions are:

Did these items belong to the SA or the Hitler Youth (HJ), or could they all have been worn together by an HJ member at the same time?
Is it possible to date them more precisely based on the maker's marks on the badges and the absence of markings on the buckle?

Thanks in advance for any insights!

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[mkholst]

Hi Lebensgefahr

As you can see in this picture from an original Assmann sales catalog, a 45 mm belt buckle is for SA and a 35 mm for HJ.

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So your belt buckle must be an SA buckle.

Michael

 

[Lebensgefahr]

Hi Lebensgefahr

As you can see in this picture from an original Assmann sales catalog, a 45 mm belt buckle is for SA and a 35 mm for HJ.

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So your belt buckle must be an SA buckle.

Michael

Thanks. I saw this catalog. But I saw another one. There is 19015 type in it too and it is nickel plated as you can see (like mine).
And there is a HJ buckle there which called S.A. u N.S.K.K Koppelschnallen. This buckle is standard after December of 1933 https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...i_Germany_No_known_copyright_restrictions.jpg
And mine isn't absolutely the same. Mine has no signs on internal side. It was produced before this catalog appear I think.

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[mkholst]

I'm not sure I fully understand what you're writing about
"And there is a HJ buckle there which called S.A. u N.S.K.K Koppelschnallen."

Because the text on the page is ABOVE the pictured belt buckles.

So the 2 on the top line are both SA (Koppeschlösser is plural, so it applies to both of them)
On line 2 it's both DJ
On line 3 it's ONE Hj and ONE BDM
On the last line it's both SA/NSKK

So I still think your belt buckle is an SA

Michael

 

[Lebensgefahr]

I'm not sure I fully understand what you're writing about
"And there is a HJ buckle there which called S.A. u N.S.K.K Koppelschnallen."

Because the text on the page is ABOVE the pictured belt buckles.

So the 2 on the top line are both SA (Koppeschlösser is plural, so it applies to both of them)
On line 2 it's both DJ
On line 3 it's ONE Hj and ONE BDM
On the last line it's both SA/NSKK

So I still think your belt buckle is an SA

Michael

Thank you for the clarification. I hadn't noticed that the text above the image referred to the entire row.

I remember seeing somewhere that the SA-type buckle was also used by the HJ before 1933, prior to the introduction of the standardized pattern.

There are two images in the link above. If you enlarge the one showing the people with documents on the table, you can clearly see the buckle on the right(attachment). It is an HJ buckle with the diamond beneath the eagle. However, if you enlarge the image showing the people leaning over the map, you can see the buckle on the left (attachment). That one is clearly not an HJ buckle with the diamond.

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I found these items within an area of about one square meter, buried in the ground, using a metal detector. They clearly belonged to the same person.
At first, I thought they were part of a sort of keepsake box containing mementos from different periods of that person's life, since the collection included items from different stages of his life.
However, I came across images showing HJ members wearing the same shoulder strap stars as those used by the SA. It's also possible that they used SA-style belt buckles before the standardized HJ buckle was introduced. That would better explain why all of my finds were together in one place.
The shoulder strap stars had been carefully removed from the shoulder straps before they ended up in the ground. Their prongs had been folded over and show the characteristic bends resulting from their original attachment.
So I can't decide was he HJ and SA or HJ only member.

 

[mkholst]

“I remember seeing somewhere that the SA-type buckle was also used by the HJ before 1933, prior to the introduction of the standardized pattern.”

Yes – but in the 35 mm version

“However, I came across images showing HJ members wearing the same shoulder strap stars as those used by the SA.”

Stars were never used on SA shoulder straps, but on HJ and Wehrmacht - HJ stars measure approximately 11 mm, so if they are larger, they are Wehrmacht stars

If all the things found belong to the same person, he was first in the HJ and then in the SA – which was very common at the time.

I can't get any closer to that.

Michael

 

[Lebensgefahr]

“I remember seeing somewhere that the SA-type buckle was also used by the HJ before 1933, prior to the introduction of the standardized pattern.”

Yes – but in the 35 mm version

“However, I came across images showing HJ members wearing the same shoulder strap stars as those used by the SA.”

Stars were never used on SA shoulder straps, but on HJ and Wehrmacht - HJ stars measure approximately 11 mm, so if they are larger, they are Wehrmacht stars

If all the things found belong to the same person, he was first in the HJ and then in the SA – which was very common at the time.

I can't get any closer to that.

Michael

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30107244

The nickle-plated buckle features the Hitler Youth emblem of a mobile swastika within a diamond, held within the talons of an eagle. This design is central to double-circle, the text, 'Blut und Ehre' (blood and honour) appearing within the border of the two circles.
History note
With origins dating back to a youth section of the National Socialist movement that began in 1922, the Hitler Youth became an independent organization in 1933. Earlier, as part of the SA, many youths had been involved in and become casualties of violent struggles with followers of other political movements, their uniforms being indistinguishable from the Storm Troops.

This quotation confirms that the HJ uniform was indistinguishable from that of the SA.


You are identifying a buckle dating to around 1926 using a 1939 catalog. The pages shown above are from a later period than the buckle itself. By the time that catalog was published, my items had already been lying in the ground for several years.

F.W.Assmann & Sohne, Wehrmacht - Reichesheer, Luden Scheid I.W.Uniformknopfe, Abzeich, Koppelschlosser, Schinallen, 1939 : Herbert Booker : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

F.W.Assmann & Sohne Katalog from 1939 of the N.S.D.A.P.

archive.org

Sorry for the inaccuracy. I meant the collar stars worn by the SA. They are exactly the same as the stars used on HJ shoulder straps (I don't know if the dimensions are identical, but they appear to be the same in photographs). My two stars could correspond either to the first rank in the HJ or the second rank in the SA. The stars measure 20 mm diagonally and 14 mm across each side of the square.

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[mkholst]

I don't quite understand why you asked the questions, since you apparently answered them yourself.

I could keep finding arguments for my opinion, but I choose to stop spending more time on it.

I have collected things from this period including HJ and SA for over 50 years, and in my opinion your belt buckle is a very ordinary SA belt buckle and nothing else.

If you think otherwise, that's fine with me.

Michael

 

[Lebensgefahr]

I want to understand how these items could have ended up together. I have no doubt that they were lost by the same person at the same time.

Initially, I considered the buckle and the shoulder strap stars to be SA insignia, while the badges were HJ. Then I came across these photos of HJ members, and I began to lean toward the idea that all of the items were HJ-related. That also provides a better explanation for why they were all found together.

The badges are definitely HJ. The shoulder strap stars could be either HJ or SA (they appear identical in the photos). Likewise, the buckle could have belonged to either the SA or the HJ.

You say it is SA, and I disagree. I do believe you, but with all due respect, 50 years of experience is not proof. You refer to a catalog, but that catalog dates from 1939. You also mention the size of the stars, yet mine are a different size.

I would like to see evidence. I also searched the NSDAP/SS/SA database for people who might have lived there, but I found no matches. That is not proof either, since the database is incomplete, the search is not entirely reliable, and the person who lost the items may not have been the one who lived there.

I'm sorry, but that's just how I am. I don't accept things on faith unless there is evidence.