The M1/120 Deumer HJ honour badge with horizontal maker mark

[Wim Vangossum]

Hi everyone,


The last couple of days I was busy with studying my Deumer HJ Ehrenzeichens. And more important: comparing them with the controversial (fake?) horizontal maker marked Deumer. You probably know the badge with "M1/120" written above the pinplate and the RZM mark below the pin plate. (maybe someone has a picture on file). Detlev Niemann sold them and also Weitze has on for sale from time to time.

Now if I compare the dot pattern of this controversial Deumer, it match with all my other Deumers. If you make a pictures of the red enamel field and place it in one line with other Deumers it is the same. So I guess they came out one and the same obverse die. Also the typical step in the gilded outer border is the same on all Deumers. Besides Deumer only Deschler has a similar step. The other makers have a different type of golden border.
The more I think about it, the more I get convinced that the horizontal maker marked Deumer could be a good variant instead of a fake HJ Ehrenzeichen.

A few pictures of these badges woul make it more clear but than I have to rely on the good will of some fellow collectors ;-)

Metallwarenfabrik has written me that he will check a few things concerning this badge as soon as he has the time. In the mean while I'm open for discussion here on HJ -research.
Me too have always thought this badge was a fake. But new I think it deserves a second look.


Kind regards, Wim

 

[christianlohmann]

This is what I like about this forum. Especially the long time collectors do not seem to be too proud to consider new input, give items a second look (and a third, and a fourth) and even change their minds if necessary. We are all humans and we sometimes make mistakes. But admitting this on the occasion, that reveals one's true greatness. (I hope I did not write too pathetic.)

 

[Garry]

I absolutely agree with Christian and am looking forward to the results of your work guys. It certainly sounds like that version of the M1/120 has a very good chance of being an original.

....You probably know the badge with "M1/120" written above the pinplate and the RZM mark below the pin plate. (maybe someone has a picture on file). Detlev Niemann sold them and also Weitze has on for sale from time to time.

Here's a thread showing one of the "horizontal" Deumer Wim:

http://www.hj-research.com/forum/f28/hj-ehrenzeichen-set-weitze-3530/

 

[Wim Vangossum]

I'm pretty convinced that it has to be good. But for being 100% sure we need a "Metallwaren" forensic of that badge. Maybe Jo will find one day a cheap example that he can examinate :swiss


Regards, Wim

 

[stuart]

so as to help us be 100% sure why not buy one as a group, share the cost so to speak to get one to joe to examine, if the cost was split it wouldnt cost much and would worth it for the results

 

[HJ-collector]

so as to help us be 100% sure why not buy one as a group, share the cost so to speak to get one to joe to examine, if the cost was split it wouldnt cost much and would worth it for the results

great idea mate, count me in for a few dollahs donation !

 

[Jo Rivett]

Hi Wim
Great thread, but we need some images
This is exactly what is going to happen, once a closer look it taken at everything. Good items now turn out bad - even though they are found in books that go back 40 years - items we thought were bad, or turned our nose up at may well prove to be genuine... A detailed study of one item on it`s own merit, and using the history of that item to support, can only help, no matter what anyone says. It prompts other collectors to look at their items too, like you are doing now.

Because anyone can look at their items in high detail, i dont see why you need me. I cant accept anything from others to inspect anyway because my time is limited. It`s also not something i want to do either.

The clue is going to be in the detail, and in the material, as Deumer is still making the same stuff today. So if we are adopting a "new way" of taking a closer look, and breaking with tradition, then we also need to break with the old way of thinking, that only one small Austrian maker called Rudolf Souval was producing copies, along with Steinhauer & Luck. Because that is just not true.

The hard part for you Wim is going to be in taking sufficient images, because when you intend on proving something. conclusively, then the images and research needs to be conclusive as well, otherwise the door is still ajar for speculation. It depends what is enough for you as proof? But if you are talking about a badge that most think is bad, and you can convince them that they are wrong and that it is good, then you cant convince with small images that dont really show much. What you dont see with the eye, is what you need to find, in order to make any connections between identical dies used.

It can be hard sometimes to share with others what you are seeing, when only small images are shown, even though you may well be correct. Even really large images of the "dots" are not 100% proof that the same die was used. To a certain extent they are Wim, but when it comes to proving that a long accepted fake is good, or visa versa, you need to be conclusive and find more. This is very easy to do actually, as there will be fingerprints that you see under magnification, indicative of one die only.

I have found that with a full front micro scan of the HJ badge, you are able to see much more detail. You can set the depth of the microscope to see beneath the red enamel and onto the base, then, you will see not just a few small round "dots", but exactly how each dot is shaped, and how big or small it is. If you compare badges using these kind of images, then you can be 100% sure if the same die was used, without any room for debate. Thats the way i see it. It is easy to do, but takes time. This partial image is actually only a small HJ stickpin, but you can see what i mean. Click as well on the PDF.

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These are images i took from this post, where you will see by the first image, although large, we only see dots.. nothing more.. sure you can see more or less how they are positioned, and you could compare them more or less to other badges, but then the conclusion you reach will also only be more or less. In my opinion, a detailed and conclusive comparison of dots, only carries weight once really high resolution scans are taken, once we can see what the eye cannot. But there will be many other faults as well, not just the dots need to be looked at.

Regardless of my last posts on the WRF, i did not invent common sense, and i dint invent research either, but what i can lay claim to, is inventing the Micro-scan of badges. It happened on this very forum, and as i am sure everyone with 2 eyes will agree, a reduced micro-scan outweighs any kind of photographic study image done to date. It shows you everything, every blemish, every fart and whisker.

 

[Wim Vangossum]

Hi Jo,

I support the idea that only micro scans could give a 100 % proof in this situation. Maybe one day I buy such a badge when it cross my way. Taking the fake HJ Ehrenzeichens in count that are on the marked today, I find it also hard to believe that a forger copies the exact dot pattern and the right golden border from a Deumer. That comes pretty close. Then there must be also perfect copies of the other makers. But that's not the case. Most Fake HJ Ehrenzeichens have no markings at all or have completly different markings as the originals.
For instance: I assume there are at the moment no copies of party badges were forgers copy the exact dot pattern, font and reverse markings of a specific maker? I mean in a way that you need micro analysis to detect which M1/128 is fake and which M1/128 is real? Maybe one day it will come this far.
This difference quite a lot with the combat awards. In combat awards, like the Allgemeines sturmabzeichen, they already copy the specific design, die flaws and hardware of a certain maker. And the fakers do this structual with many different maker types. If you can make a top quality fake of one, you can also make others...
But again; we study no combat awards here. I collect the HJ Ehrenzeichens for a while now and personally I feel that this area is not loaded with tons of high end fakes. Once you know your makers, you can almost safely buy based on the offered pictures (for as long as this will last).
But I do realize that for the 100 % proof that they came from one and the same die only micro analysis will be the final judge!

Regards, Wim

 

[stuart]

heres a pic i was sent by wim , showing the three diff types of deumer dot pattern

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[Jo Rivett]

heres a pic i was sent by wim , showing the three diff types of deumer dot pattern

Wim did send me images, quite large actually, but - and i know i am going to sound like a pk now, if this was my collectible, then i would want to have images like i showed. I know this is all relatively new and not everyone has the patience to sit behind a microscope for a day - or longer. But i really do believe that a much better is look is going to be the proper way at solving this problem. After all, you have seen the images i posted on this thread - and others, of "dot patterns" so you will surely agree that there IS, a better, easier, and more conclusive way, to reach a conclusive answer.

I`ll tell you why i didn't want to host the pictures that Wim sent me.

Firstly this aint my baby i washed my hands of these "Deumer" badges long ago. Not just the B marked badges, all of them. I am still interested of course on any outcome.

Secondly, it`s Xmas, and i dont want to be negative. Not your usual negative, thats no problem, but i know Wim collects these, and is studying them now, so good. Great actually. I wanted to leave the "research" up to him.
Thirdly, i dont want to be known as the "Grandfather of Micro-whatever", and would really hope that i wont be called into future debates or used as "the person to send your stuff to."
I really loath the way that this hobby seems to have chosen a few "Specialists" who apparently only they can wave their magic want over a piece and give the answer. - Or, when they do, the item is deemed good or bad instantly. That stuff lingers around forever, and as people are finding out now, WILL come back and bite you in the arse later.

This looking closer takes TIME ONLY, and a decent microscope costs LESS, than one of these badges!

I hope you will continue Wim, and for this reason, give you a little push here. You have started off wrong, in my opinion, because you have no primary, 100% original badge. This comparison of three badges, is based (i imagine) on the premise that at least one of the three, is original. But which one? Because i will be honest with you here, i dont like the look of the obverse or reverse of any of them. I could pick them apart for days, i dont like what looks like added taps and nicks all over the reverses of all 3 badges - all done by the same "thing" and at the same depth/time. I dont like the flaky gold wash, i dont like the RZM logos of any, which are all slightly different, and if you have read my book, then you will understand why the inner boundary extra-line, that is seen on 2 badges, is most worrying to me. See small image below of the line(s) i mean, (the line(s) is/are between the yellow lines) and then click the PDF for full frontals of the images that Wim sent. The RZM logos i put side by side as well. Notice the letter M - amongst other things.

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I believe that it needs to be proved, that at least one of them is original first. This can be done at the same time when a full front scan is done, as well as looking at a few traits of the reverse. After that, at least we will be able to see if the material is correct, the obverse patina (matches the heavy reverse wear/patina) etc etc, and then we can compare to the others and then, start looking for explanations as to why and when....

Hope you all understand.

 

[Jo Rivett]

Metallwarenfabriks word zum Freitag

Wim, you could start with RZM logos on one, or all 3. As, no matter what small RZM marked badge you take, if you look at the logo under magnification, it will talk to you, and tell you if it`s original or not.

I will give you two examples below.
The first micro composite image is naturally from a genuine badge. You can see that the messing (material) is correct, and that the badge has been worn. It looks the same as any RZM logo from an original badge looked at in this way.

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This micro composite image, is taken from the reproduction RZM 67 HJ Ehrenzeichen.. and Wim, can you see? It is talking to you, shouting at you!

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So Wim, rather than trying to convince first, start at the beginning, and see what your badges are telling you. IF the story they tell looks to be a good one, then, take the research from there.

Hope you all understand my stance on this here, and no hard feelings.

 

[Jo Rivett]

Wim, the impressed numbers on the HJ Ehrenzeichen are also going to talk to you under magnification. They will tell you if the base material is correct, if the patina is correct etc... Below are more examples for you.

The images focus on the BASE, to show the patina, and not on the actual numbers. (so the numbers appear blurred here)

The following numbers 5 and 0 are taken from an original Deschler HJ Ehrenzeichen, and show us everything we would hope to see on an original.

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The following numbers 0 and 4 are taken from the same Y-pattern fake HJ Ehrenzeichen as i mentioned and linked above.. can you hear these images screaming loud and clear? because they are.

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[Wim Vangossum]

Hi Jo,

I respect and understand your point of view, no problem. I do know your not a fan of the Deumer Badges. But original Deumers have to exist. I'm aware of two serial numbered which were found togheter with the bezitsurkunde. In fact I am more worried about the M1/70 which I have listed 35 times by now and still no one with Bezitsurkunde?
A second problem is that the Deumer badges are very hard to capture in a decent photograph (at least in my case). I don't know why but most of the time the pictures (especially the reverse) look horrible, showing not what you see with your own eyes.

When I look to them with a magnifier, you see signs of wear, even with the badges who look "mint" to the naked eye. But I magnifier is still no microscope, so I will think about that. I assume you use a digital variant?

Regards, Wim

 

[Jo Rivett]

Hi Jo,

I respect and understand your point of view, no problem.

Wim, there obviously is a problem, because this is not my point of view. It is simple, unedited, Forensic Science, and forensic Science has nothing to do with me.
What you "are aware of" and what "Jo Rivett has seen or claims.." or what Boris the Beast thinks, is of no interest to anyone, and of no use in a debate like this without e v i d e n c e.
You cannot convince me, or anyone, with words. This is the old way Wim.