HJ Gefolgschaft and Fähnlein standard bearer patch - real vs fake

[zander]

Hi Ewan

No just a single album page its in the picture thread page 2 dated 15th sept,

its a shame the clarity gets blurred as its enlarged , i do have another picture with the insignia in wear and will try to find it to see if i can obtain a better scan

cheers

steve

 

[Garry]

Okay, I've been working on a wiki page for these standard bearer patches today. I'm looking for period photos that clearly show the patch on uniforms as it would be very useful to see if we can find a "pointy" in wear on a period photo. I don't think we will..

 

[lewys]

Hello Gentlemen,

I found this badge recently with other HJ relics. With all the fakes currently circulating and despite your very good explanations on this site, concerning the upper point of the triangle, I still do not know if this badge is original or if it is a copy. Thank you for your feedback.
Best regards from Alsace , france.
Carfin.

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[bertl59]

the genuine is wider and there is no trace of red at the bottom (we can see it appearing under the white thread)
Here ,the back of a good one

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[lewys]

Hello gentlemen,

You were kind enough to respond to me and I thank you. I do, however, have some reservations; the administrator of this site presents in post #3 a badge that he photographed in the 1943 book "Organisationsbuch der NSDAP" which is narrower than the one you present, does this mean that this badge is a copy. On the other hand, we do not present any view of the reverse of this badge, so we cannot make any comparison, especially with regard to the "traces of red threads". You will easily understand that before spending €350 I need absolute certainty as well as comprehensive and comparative explanations and that is why I am contacting this forum of which I am a member. Once again, I absolutely do not doubt your knowledge on the subject nor that of the other colleagues on this forum, but for the moment the explanations provided do not satisfy me.
Best regards from Alsace , France.
Carfin.

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[bertl59]

Hi
I completely understand your reservations, especially when it comes to spending 350 euros !
It is very difficult to discern certain details "that make the difference" when you do not have the object in hand, and this is the limit of my knowledge. Other members will undoubtedly be able to contribute to differentiating the good from the bad
greetings

 

[lewys]

Hello gentlemen,

Thank you for the reply. I will wait replies from other members.

Best regards from Alsace , France.
Carfin.

 

[Garry]

One thing to remember is that the fakes always seem to have the point at the top of the diamond and they are narrower than originals (as mentioned previously in post 24).

You said:

"the administrator of this site presents in post #3 a badge that he photographed in the 1943 book "Organisationsbuch der NSDAP" which is narrower than the one you present, does this mean that this badge is a copy"

Yes, the 1943 OB shows a patch that looks like the fakes and clearly has different dimensions when compared to an original. I was making the argument that the fakes look like they have been made using the 1943 OB picture as reference. It's worth remembering that the OB over the years contained errors.

Until a period photo turns up showing a boy wearing a patch with a pointed tip at the top of the diamond I will personally continue to view the patches we see today with that characteristic (and the narrow width) as fakes.

 

[lewys]

Hi,

Wow, to question a badge illustrated in an official book from 1943 is to push the envelope a little too far.
Sorry sir, but I can't follow you on this.
Carfin.

 

[Garry]

Hi,

Wow, to question a badge illustrated in an official book from 1943 is to push the envelope a little too far.
Sorry sir, but I can't follow you on this.
Carfin.

Okay,

Do you see the mistake here? This is the 1938 OB:

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Here's another (1943 OB). The cap badge should be gold.

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Just two mistakes found quickly. There are many others in the various OB and not just when it comes to the Hitler Youth. I'm sure others may have examples of mistakes from other organisations that they can show.



Just going back to your comment about the picture shown in the 1943 OB: in that same post I also showed a period depiction of the patch from a 1940 book in my collection (see below). As you can see, it has a blunt diamond and dimensions corresponding to known originals. The fakes don't look like this.

Also, the size of original patches is:

7.2 cm in width and about 7.6 cm in height. The fakes are always smaller than that.

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I can't say with certainty that a version with pointy diamond did not exist during the TR. What can be said though is that the fakes all have that type of diamond.