ONE THING i HAVE NOTED ON THESE IS THE ENGRAVING is very shallow and most are very worn
PAUL
PAUL
DJ Deutsches Jungvolk knives
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I'm in agreement with Mike on this as I stated in my first post on the thread. Who would want a souvenir from the Third Reich era that did not have a swastika on it?
Regards
Russ
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Here are some images of my "mystery" knife... As you can see, it too is in real nice, unissued condition, as most are. It is obvious that the rivet holding the front blade tension spring in place was removed so the spring could be removed temporarily to install the HJ diamond. The HJ diamond has enough movement that I can just barely see under it. Using an eye loupe and an intense mini light I can clearly make out the RZM mark on the back of the diamond. And yes, this little beauty was purchased in Virginia directly from the WW2 Veteran that brought it back from the war. I've been aware of the controversy surrounding this little knives for a long time. This is why I couldn't wait to find one for myself. Very clearly, the HJ diamond was added after the scabbard was completed and painted. I feel these were made up special during the TR period for some event that never took place. They were to be used as gifts, awards or just sold as keep sakes. We'll very likely never know the answer. The fact is, several of these were brought back by WW2 Veterans and nearly all are in unissued condition. Some GI probably wondered into a factory storage area and found a box of these little knives and handed them out like candy to his buddies. Or more likely used them as trade items. This is one possible explanation for them all being in unissued condition.
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YOU NEED A SIGNED AFFIDAVIT from the vet with pics and IMO there will still be the same controversy. Is this maker marked ? Would be interesting to list known examples by maker just to see how widespread this is
PAUL
PAUL
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My Uncle was the commander of a P-47 Thunderbolt squadron. Fifty missions! He was based out of England. The year before he passed away, I had the opportunity to sit down with him and talk about his many experiences over there. There's way too much to talk about here, but one thing I found that was extremely interesting was the absolute stone mint SA dagger, RZM M7/13 by Arthur Schuttelhofer that he brought back. I asked him how he got it and he told me that since his outfit was based in England, the fliers never set foot on the ground in Germany (if they were lucky). The GIs were coming back with all kinds of goodies but there was no way for the USAAF guys to get a souvenir. One day when he went to the mess tent, there were several cases of brand new, unissued Arthur Schuttelhofer SA daggers.. All the guys took one, and the rest is history. I don't know how many of you guys are into daggers but if you look around, there are minty RZM M7/13 SA daggers readily available. Now you know why ..
I shared this with you because now you can see how and why all of these little DJ "mystery" knives are often found in minty unissued condition. I am a firm believer that these were produced during the Third Reich period and not just thrown together after the war to sell to GIs as souvenirs.
I shared this with you because now you can see how and why all of these little DJ "mystery" knives are often found in minty unissued condition. I am a firm believer that these were produced during the Third Reich period and not just thrown together after the war to sell to GIs as souvenirs.
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Hi Paul,
I have already tried to find the Vet that brought this little knife back, but to no avail.. I am afraid the trail has gone cold..
There is no maker mark on this one..
all the best ..
Mike
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Thanks for posting the pictures and the results of your close inspection. One thing I always think when I see these knives is that other TR period knives with a organistational symbol have it on the hilt, grip or some other part of the knife itself, not the scabbard. I'm not a knife collector but I find this thread and the differing opinons and evidence to be really interesting.
I have been collecting since the 60s and seems to me these knives only began to show up in the late 80s but stand to be corrected. There is no pedigree for them at all and I find the diamond on the scabbard totally out to lunch. If there is only one maker identified and some confirmation that they where found stored in one place then I might start believing
PAUL
PAUL
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I remain open minded about these little knives, and it is certainly an enigma, to be sure.
Say you already have a stock of the little knives without the HJ diamond on the scabbards. And you want to mount an HJ insignia for some special up coming event. You're only option would be to mount the diamond or whatever insignia on the scabbard, unless you have a stock of spare grip plates with the diamond recesses molded into them standing by. Not likely. Because I am completely convinced by the testimonies of people like Ron Weinand, Tom Johnson and many more, and I know where this one came from, I know these were produced during the TR period. Or shortly thereafter, but not in the 60s or 80s. Can I prove that with an affidavit? Sadly, I cannot. You can tell, while holding it in hand and under close inspection, that the mounting of this insignia was not haphazardly done. The above is only my opinion and theory .. Makes sense to me ..
Say you already have a stock of the little knives without the HJ diamond on the scabbards. And you want to mount an HJ insignia for some special up coming event. You're only option would be to mount the diamond or whatever insignia on the scabbard, unless you have a stock of spare grip plates with the diamond recesses molded into them standing by. Not likely. Because I am completely convinced by the testimonies of people like Ron Weinand, Tom Johnson and many more, and I know where this one came from, I know these were produced during the TR period. Or shortly thereafter, but not in the 60s or 80s. Can I prove that with an affidavit? Sadly, I cannot. You can tell, while holding it in hand and under close inspection, that the mounting of this insignia was not haphazardly done. The above is only my opinion and theory .. Makes sense to me ..
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Thanks for adding the pics and info - most interesting.
I believe the knives themselves to be period manufacture, and I think most people do. They are promoted as sanctioned items for the DJ and BDM without period proof, and therefore, command high prices. To get one with a diamond now makes it scarce, or rare, thus commanding even more. This is the area of contention - their link to these organisations without documented period proof, in all of their various guises.
Paul, your comment is interesting regarding when you first saw these appear. One of the Mods at GDC said he and others saw the etched commemorative knives first appear in the 80's - is that what you mean, or does this also apply to the knives with the diamond added?
Regards
Russ
I believe the knives themselves to be period manufacture, and I think most people do. They are promoted as sanctioned items for the DJ and BDM without period proof, and therefore, command high prices. To get one with a diamond now makes it scarce, or rare, thus commanding even more. This is the area of contention - their link to these organisations without documented period proof, in all of their various guises.
Paul, your comment is interesting regarding when you first saw these appear. One of the Mods at GDC said he and others saw the etched commemorative knives first appear in the 80's - is that what you mean, or does this also apply to the knives with the diamond added?
Regards
Russ
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THERE was much made of high quality for the souvenir hungry troops for instance the SA daggers which still pass today as period.
PAUL
Rus I was refering to the knives with diamonds in scabbard, I bought my engraved in 1971 and sold it to Angolia shortly after
militarynut is selling what he calls a BDM knife which had no insignia
PAUL
Rus I was refering to the knives with diamonds in scabbard, I bought my engraved in 1971 and sold it to Angolia shortly after
militarynut is selling what he calls a BDM knife which had no insignia
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Well, anyway, that's my two bits..
At least now there some images of the "mystery" knife here for all to see..
If anybody would like specific images, just let me know ..
All the best ..
Mike W.
Paul, I only have twenty-two years of dagger experience, but I'm a quick learner ..
At least now there some images of the "mystery" knife here for all to see..
If anybody would like specific images, just let me know ..
All the best ..
Mike W.
Paul, I only have twenty-two years of dagger experience, but I'm a quick learner ..
Mike hopefully some day soon positive info will come out on this knife and yours will be worth a bunch, until then we can discuss it in open forum get everyones ideas and perhaps that will bring out the truth
Noone is disputing I think that the knives are period - just that they are 'DJ' knives. It can be proven that they were not an officially procured item made for wear by the DJ but still there remains doubt among collectors which I personally cannot understand.
Yes, there are owners of these knives who may have a vested interest in continuing to propagate the idea that the knives are more important than the evidence would suggest but if you look past that what else is there?
In my opinion there is nothing to suggest that a price tag in the multi-hundred dollar region is remotely justified. I and others can quote regulations verbatim which speak against the existence of a 'DJ' knife but this evidence is often dismissed out of hand: 'regulations are useful but they don't tell you everything'. Well yes, that is an argument but in a situation where the only true evidence available speaks against the existence of a 'DJ' knife then I'm at a loss to understand how anyone can imagine that there is anything more to say unless of course it is evidence for the DJ knife which would indeed be very welcome.
Simply telling people that these knives are DJ without offering evidence to support that statement just isn't helpful - not to the collector and not to those who spent serious money on one. It only helps one group - the dealers who can continue to charge silly money for an unsubstantiated knife.
Yes, there are owners of these knives who may have a vested interest in continuing to propagate the idea that the knives are more important than the evidence would suggest but if you look past that what else is there?
In my opinion there is nothing to suggest that a price tag in the multi-hundred dollar region is remotely justified. I and others can quote regulations verbatim which speak against the existence of a 'DJ' knife but this evidence is often dismissed out of hand: 'regulations are useful but they don't tell you everything'. Well yes, that is an argument but in a situation where the only true evidence available speaks against the existence of a 'DJ' knife then I'm at a loss to understand how anyone can imagine that there is anything more to say unless of course it is evidence for the DJ knife which would indeed be very welcome.
Simply telling people that these knives are DJ without offering evidence to support that statement just isn't helpful - not to the collector and not to those who spent serious money on one. It only helps one group - the dealers who can continue to charge silly money for an unsubstantiated knife.
I would think that if these knives with the diamond on the scabbard were made during the period a better effort would have been made to conceal the damage to the rivet, repainting the entire scabbard if necessary. If the diamond was added directly after the war possibly within a few months after May 1945 the correct black paint that we take for granted possibly was not available. As they are found today all that would have been needed was just a few hand tools and nothing else to make the change. Just my thoughts as nobody knows for sure. Mike
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Like I said in an earlier posting, I have an open mind about these little mystery knives. And you have never heard me refer to them as anything other than "mystery knife" ..
I appreciate and do not completely disagree with your firm standing as to the origin of these knives. I also appreciate and do not disagree with the stance of Mr. Johnson and Mr. Weinand. You both have equally substantial view points. I know, the "true" answer will probably never be known..
My only intention in posting on this forum topic was to provide clear images for all to view and use as they will. And to provide my little theory of another possibility as to why the little mystery knives exist.
Now on a lighter note, the irony .. Last night, I received an email from a person that saw my posting on this forum. He offered $850. for my little mystery knife. I respectfully declined his offer as the little knife is not for sale.
Paul - The SA my Uncle brought back is the real McCoy ..
I appreciate and do not completely disagree with your firm standing as to the origin of these knives. I also appreciate and do not disagree with the stance of Mr. Johnson and Mr. Weinand. You both have equally substantial view points. I know, the "true" answer will probably never be known..
My only intention in posting on this forum topic was to provide clear images for all to view and use as they will. And to provide my little theory of another possibility as to why the little mystery knives exist.
Now on a lighter note, the irony .. Last night, I received an email from a person that saw my posting on this forum. He offered $850. for my little mystery knife. I respectfully declined his offer as the little knife is not for sale.
Paul - The SA my Uncle brought back is the real McCoy ..
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My apologies if my post came across as being directed toward you personally Fluglehrer. That definitely wasn't my intention. They are very good pictures and thanks for posting them.
Yes, it is eminently possible that the true answer may never be known (although I have my doubts) but in the meantime these knives continue to attract hefty price tags and the mystique surrounding them continues and is indeed propagated on the various forums. Very unhealthy situation for collectors in my opinion.
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This implies that Mr Johnson and Mr Weinand (counsel for the DJ knife if you like) have provided sufficient proof? I only ask because you imply that you agree fully with their take but not completely with mine. They don't have any hard evidence as far as I'm aware. Just interested - not an attack
Yes, it is eminently possible that the true answer may never be known (although I have my doubts) but in the meantime these knives continue to attract hefty price tags and the mystique surrounding them continues and is indeed propagated on the various forums. Very unhealthy situation for collectors in my opinion.
Quick edit:
This implies that Mr Johnson and Mr Weinand (counsel for the DJ knife if you like) have provided sufficient proof? I only ask because you imply that you agree fully with their take but not completely with mine. They don't have any hard evidence as far as I'm aware. Just interested - not an attack
first off I do not recall questioning your uncles SA but refering to the post war parts daggers quickly made up some with strange engravings for sports events.
Secondly I agree there is a heavy influence by bigger named dealers with this knife and other things using the cover of so called motel buys. When I used to do the shows up here most of my TR sales where to vets and German immigrants.
PAUL
Secondly I agree there is a heavy influence by bigger named dealers with this knife and other things using the cover of so called motel buys. When I used to do the shows up here most of my TR sales where to vets and German immigrants.
PAUL
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Mike,
I do not disagree with your theory. Here's another, If the little knives were fabricated with the intent to defraud, don't you think the fakers would at least invest in a little dab of black paint to touch up their evil doings? If the addition of the insignia was performed during the TR period at the original factory, would it not be possible the knives were liberated before the touch up was performed. Or maybe the factory installer didn't feel it was necessary.
The bottom line is, a thousand shades of gray ..
All the best ..
Mike