HJ flag for Gefolgschaft "M" 9/60?

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dexter1935

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Hello from France.
It's my first post. I own since 1986 a HJ Gefolgschaft flag associated to Gefolgschaft 9 - Bann 60
(Oberhausen - Obergebiet 3 « West »).

Here is three pictures of this flag and its patch.

The patch has been modified during the
war or the pre-war period. A «1» has been removed before the «9».
The number «9» is even maybe not the original number of the patch
because I doubt that a Bann was able to contain 19 Gefolgschaften.
However, the «9» dates from this time. I am shure of it.

Dexter1935

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OK thank you. So you have never seen a « M » like this on a flag patch ?
 
Hi,

The only official Hitler Youth flags for male and female numbered units that had letters on the corner patch were those used by the Rundfunkspielscharen ("RS") and the Spieleinheiten ("S"). No other variations are mentioned in the regulations between 1935 (introduction of standardised flags and pennants for the Hitler Youth) and 1943. The 1943 reference lists the last change to flag regulations as having been issued in 1941 (regarding the parading of pennants)).

This doesn't mean that your flag is therefore a fake of course but there is certainly no official justification for the M in the regulations.
 
Hi Garry,

Without wishing to polemics over this issue, is there something to do with the navy ( Marine - HJ ) ? it's just a hypothesis......

Best Regards

Eric
 
Hi Eric,

Certainly as far as regulations are concerned I cannot see any justification for the "M". As you know, the Marine-HJ flag corner panels used after the standardisation of HJ flags in 1935 were blue with a gold border but other than that they were identical to the flags used by the general HJ. Also, the numbering conventions on the flags for Marine-HJ, Nachrichten-HJ, Motor-HJ and Flieger-HJ did not include letters in the unit designation.

Could it be an unofficial modification to a standard HJ Gefolgschaft flag or an early flag with an unofficial unit number? If anything it will be the former but simply adding an "M" locally to a standard HJ Gefolgschaft flag to show that Gefolgschaft 9/60 was a Marine-HJ unit was certainly not permitted. The flags were an RZM product subject to regulation on size, material etc and there is mention in the flag regulations in October 1938 about the renumbering of units. It is stated that units were not permitted to request the RZM to unstitch old numbers and restitch the new ones. The order specifically says that "there is no point in asking". Instead, the unit would order a new flag or a new corner panel. Another order dated August 1938 reminds units that they were not permitted to deal with RZM firms directly and that instead, all orders for flags and pennants had to go through the RJF Organisationsamt. This is evidence for a system where there is a clear idea about who stitched the numbers onto the corner panels so anyone putting non-standard characters onto a corner panel must have known that it was incorrect.

So, in short I would think that this is likely to be a locally modified flag designed to be used for a short period in lieu of the correct item which of course took time to provision. Or, I hate to say it, it is "late-war" and looks this way because it was no longer possible to obtain the correct flag.

The flag looks good as does the corner panel if we ignore that M so it is anyone's guess why it was put there. There are valid scenarios in which a unit might modify a flag so that it could be used for a short period so I would definitely not discount your idea that M=Marine-HJ makes good sense. It could also be M=Motor-HJ of course if we assume the scenario that a newly created Gefolgschaft needed a flag quickly.

Definitely an interesting item!
 
Hi Garry,

thank you for all your information, luckily you and Wim are there to enlighten us. :001_smile:
 
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