This is a thread dedicated to getting to bottom of the story about the 1. Reichsjugendtag 1932 Potsdam badge. It is part of our series on
Add your links to other discussions, evidence, pictures - anything that will help in building a compendium of information on these items for quick reference. This post will act as the collecting point for information and it will be updated as information comes in from your posts below.
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1. NS-Reichsjugendtag 1932 Potsdam
Baldur von Schirach began planning the Potsdam rally in mid 1932. The RJF coffers were almost empty and he gave the last 200RM to his Chief of Staff Karl Nabersberg to be used to rent a rally coordination office in Potsdam. The poster advertising the rally was designed jointly by von Schirach and the artist Prof. Ludwig
Schirach had no idea how many would attend the rally. When he first suggested the idea to Hitler he told him that he expected around 50% of the official membership of the Hitler Youth to attend which amounted to around 17,000 at that time. It became clear that more capacity would be required and the tented camp erected at the Potsdamer Luftschiffhafen eventually had the capacity to accommodate 50,000. The actual numbers who attended were said to be:
'80,000 boys and 20,000 girls'
'over 100,000 boys took part in the march-past...' and
'70,000 inside the stadium during Hitler's address' Baldur von Schirach 'Idee und Gestalt' p30 and 'Ich glaubte an Hitler' p159
60000: Hartmann Lauterbacher (former HJ-Stabsführer), Erlebt und Mitgestaltet p81.
What strikes you straight away when you look at pictures of the Potsdam rally is just how few people are are wearing the badge.
Pic 1: only the boy at front right appears to be wearing the badge.
Pic 2: bugler has no badge. The other boy possibly has one.
Pic 3: No badge.
How many Potsdam badges can you spot in the following clip? Lots or very few?
I have some questions....
Do we actually know that there were two levels of the badge being worn at the event? Or is the silver Potsdam badge a later addition?
We know from RJF regulations and other period sources that the Potsdam badge was given honour status after Potsdam. It is stated in this 1937 RJF regulation that the honour badge was the silver version and that the bronze version was no longer permitted for wear. The regulation states that the silver version was for 'active participants' and that the bronze version was for 'spectators and non-active participants' so we know, at least on this date, that there were definitely two levels of the badge but when they talk about active and non-active participants/spectators:
When we consider the chaos at the event is it reasonable to imagine that they were able to establish who was 'active' and who was a 'spectator/inactive' and therefore ensure that the former group were all wearing silver badges? With so many people turning up on the day and in the chaos which ensued I can't imagine someone running around making notes. It seems likely that bullet point 4 above is what actually happened. A certain number of silver badges were there on the day, were handed out and those active participants who didn't get one paid for a bronze badge. After the event and when its importance for the NSDAP became clear I can imagine that the badges, regardless of whether they were silver or bronze, were worn with pride. The 1937 order making silver the official honour badge was possibly made simply to introduce uniformity.
As to the numbers of silver available on the day, von Schirach and Nabersberg knew in advance that a certain number of participants would be coming because they had registered their intention to take part in advance (this is known to be the case) so there is a possibility that silver Potsdam badges had been ordered for these participants. With this in mind the 1937 order makes sense and would serve to show that some of the active participants received a silver badge on the day where others did not and had to make do with the bronze version.
A further indicator of the confusion is that even as late as May 1937 and according to the regulation I mentioned earlier, the RJF had still not introduced a system where those who attended the Potsdam rally and who had therefore qualified to wear the silver version of the badge (by now an honour badge) could be properly identified.
Schirach only mentions 'silver' once in his autobiography and then only in relation to the special strike of the badge which he presented to Hitler on the 11th of September 1932 in the Hotel Kaiserhof.
Go to 6:10 of this clip of Schirach speaking at the rally. Look at Schirach's badge. Is that silver or bronze? I don't know about you but I couldn't say. When the bronze badges were new they were of course very shiny so Schirach's badge could actually be the bronze version. Hitler had removed his badge by this point but we know that his was silver (if we assume that he was wearing the special badge Schirach presented to him).
Schirach does not say that the badge which was sold as a fundraiser in the weeks running up to October the 1st prior to the rally was available in a silver and bronze version (see post 10 below for more on that). Thinking logically for a second, why would he have two versions made? Doesn't make sense to me unless of course it was a way of increasing the takings i.e. the silver was more expensive to buy than the bronze.
So, did the silver badge exist prior to and during the two days of the rally in 1932 or was it produced later - possibly when the Potsdam badge was given honour status? The latter scenario would have implications for any claim that the silver version should be worth more today. Why should it be when it didn't even exist at the time of the rally? If there were no silver badges at Potsdam then that would of course make the bronze version more valuable because that is the badge which was 'there'. Another consideration with the bronze badges would be to examine them in order to establish whether Schirach's first run of fundraiser badges can be separated from any later production runs. Clearly the bronze badges which were made and sold prior to and during the event would be more valuable than badges made after the event.
On balance, it would seem more logical that both silver and bronze were there on the day and that the numbers of silver (pre-ordered) badges proved insufficient, forcing those active particpants who didn't get one into buying the bronze version. At the time of the event no one knew that the badge would be given honour status of course so for the participants it would perhaps have been a minor issue whether they had the bronze version, the silver version, or indeed any badge at all.
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Updates:
Ferdinand Hoffstätteris is said to be the sole maker of the badge (source: Internationales Militaria Magazin number 141). The author does not give the source he used and this would need to be confirmed but the information on the manufacturer is still useful.
Add your links to other discussions, evidence, pictures - anything that will help in building a compendium of information on these items for quick reference. This post will act as the collecting point for information and it will be updated as information comes in from your posts below.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1. NS-Reichsjugendtag 1932 Potsdam
Baldur von Schirach began planning the Potsdam rally in mid 1932. The RJF coffers were almost empty and he gave the last 200RM to his Chief of Staff Karl Nabersberg to be used to rent a rally coordination office in Potsdam. The poster advertising the rally was designed jointly by von Schirach and the artist Prof. Ludwig
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Hohlwein. It was also printed on postcards (right). To finance the event von Schirach had Potsdam badges, the above-mentioned postcards and special stickers produced and these were all sold in the weeks running up to the rally with the proceeds being split to cover the cost of accommodation, catering and transport for the groups who had registered their intent to participate. The Postcards cost 20Rpf, the stamps were 1RM for a sheet of 20 and the badges cost 1RM. (Baldur von Schirach: 'Ich glaubte an Hitler' chapter 18)Schirach had no idea how many would attend the rally. When he first suggested the idea to Hitler he told him that he expected around 50% of the official membership of the Hitler Youth to attend which amounted to around 17,000 at that time. It became clear that more capacity would be required and the tented camp erected at the Potsdamer Luftschiffhafen eventually had the capacity to accommodate 50,000. The actual numbers who attended were said to be:
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'80,000 boys and 20,000 girls'
'over 100,000 boys took part in the march-past...' and
'70,000 inside the stadium during Hitler's address' Baldur von Schirach 'Idee und Gestalt' p30 and 'Ich glaubte an Hitler' p159
60000: Hartmann Lauterbacher (former HJ-Stabsführer), Erlebt und Mitgestaltet p81.
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What strikes you straight away when you look at pictures of the Potsdam rally is just how few people are are wearing the badge.
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Hitler and von Schirach for example can be seen clearly wearing their badges (left) but look at the large shot (right). Hardly a badge in sight. Same with the other pictures in the next post. It's clear that not everyone had a badge. Fair enough, perhaps they didn't want one or didn't have spare cash to buy one but how can we reconcile those pictures with today's impression that all of the badges we see today were bought and worn at the 1. NS-Reichsjugendtag in Potsdam in 1932? Well of course we can't. More in next post..
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Pic 1: only the boy at front right appears to be wearing the badge.
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Pic 2: bugler has no badge. The other boy possibly has one.
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Pic 3: No badge.
How many Potsdam badges can you spot in the following clip? Lots or very few?
I have some questions....
Do we actually know that there were two levels of the badge being worn at the event? Or is the silver Potsdam badge a later addition?
We know from RJF regulations and other period sources that the Potsdam badge was given honour status after Potsdam. It is stated in this 1937 RJF regulation that the honour badge was the silver version and that the bronze version was no longer permitted for wear. The regulation states that the silver version was for 'active participants' and that the bronze version was for 'spectators and non-active participants' so we know, at least on this date, that there were definitely two levels of the badge but when they talk about active and non-active participants/spectators:
- is this a distinction which was made during the event (was there a central point where active participants were given or bought a silver badge)?
- was the distinction made at some point after the event?
- or was the distinction made when the badge was afforded honour status?
- or was it simply the case that there were active participants on the day who either had no badge or who wore the bronze version because they were more plentiful than the silver version on the day?
When we consider the chaos at the event is it reasonable to imagine that they were able to establish who was 'active' and who was a 'spectator/inactive' and therefore ensure that the former group were all wearing silver badges? With so many people turning up on the day and in the chaos which ensued I can't imagine someone running around making notes. It seems likely that bullet point 4 above is what actually happened. A certain number of silver badges were there on the day, were handed out and those active participants who didn't get one paid for a bronze badge. After the event and when its importance for the NSDAP became clear I can imagine that the badges, regardless of whether they were silver or bronze, were worn with pride. The 1937 order making silver the official honour badge was possibly made simply to introduce uniformity.
As to the numbers of silver available on the day, von Schirach and Nabersberg knew in advance that a certain number of participants would be coming because they had registered their intention to take part in advance (this is known to be the case) so there is a possibility that silver Potsdam badges had been ordered for these participants. With this in mind the 1937 order makes sense and would serve to show that some of the active participants received a silver badge on the day where others did not and had to make do with the bronze version.
A further indicator of the confusion is that even as late as May 1937 and according to the regulation I mentioned earlier, the RJF had still not introduced a system where those who attended the Potsdam rally and who had therefore qualified to wear the silver version of the badge (by now an honour badge) could be properly identified.
Schirach only mentions 'silver' once in his autobiography and then only in relation to the special strike of the badge which he presented to Hitler on the 11th of September 1932 in the Hotel Kaiserhof.
Go to 6:10 of this clip of Schirach speaking at the rally. Look at Schirach's badge. Is that silver or bronze? I don't know about you but I couldn't say. When the bronze badges were new they were of course very shiny so Schirach's badge could actually be the bronze version. Hitler had removed his badge by this point but we know that his was silver (if we assume that he was wearing the special badge Schirach presented to him).
Schirach does not say that the badge which was sold as a fundraiser in the weeks running up to October the 1st prior to the rally was available in a silver and bronze version (see post 10 below for more on that). Thinking logically for a second, why would he have two versions made? Doesn't make sense to me unless of course it was a way of increasing the takings i.e. the silver was more expensive to buy than the bronze.
So, did the silver badge exist prior to and during the two days of the rally in 1932 or was it produced later - possibly when the Potsdam badge was given honour status? The latter scenario would have implications for any claim that the silver version should be worth more today. Why should it be when it didn't even exist at the time of the rally? If there were no silver badges at Potsdam then that would of course make the bronze version more valuable because that is the badge which was 'there'. Another consideration with the bronze badges would be to examine them in order to establish whether Schirach's first run of fundraiser badges can be separated from any later production runs. Clearly the bronze badges which were made and sold prior to and during the event would be more valuable than badges made after the event.
On balance, it would seem more logical that both silver and bronze were there on the day and that the numbers of silver (pre-ordered) badges proved insufficient, forcing those active particpants who didn't get one into buying the bronze version. At the time of the event no one knew that the badge would be given honour status of course so for the participants it would perhaps have been a minor issue whether they had the bronze version, the silver version, or indeed any badge at all.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Updates:
Ferdinand Hoffstätteris is said to be the sole maker of the badge (source: Internationales Militaria Magazin number 141). The author does not give the source he used and this would need to be confirmed but the information on the manufacturer is still useful.
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