Marine-HJ Gefolgschaft Lübben - summer cap with tally?

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Fallschirmjager

Fallschirmjager

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Bought this cap from a high end dealer in the UK. Was from a large HJ collection, or so I was told.
One of nicest condition items I have, condition-wise. What I don't like is there is sign it had an eagle stickpin hole
above diamond (barely). Makers label is there. No RZM tag of course. Could this be a private purchase cap
used by a MHJ ?

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An interesting cap. I was having a conversation recently with John Robinson. He is a collector of cap tallies from the Kriegsmarine and M.H.J.. The subject of non regulation headgear with cap tallies attached came up. He told me that he sticks with RZM tagged and made items only. He further said that while it may be possible a non RZM cap was used and worn in the period, proving this is almost impossible so that's why he stays with known RZM examples when it comes to M.H.J. headgear. It is a well known fact that sailor suits for children were popular during the period, and it is possible I suppose that an M.H.J. member would attach a cap tally to his non regulation cap. I have to agree with John however, almost impossible to verify. Stick with known regulation examples IMO.
 
This sailor cap looks to be custom made and of higher quaility than RzM regulation patterns. It may very well be period . However; it does not look to be an Rzm manfactured pattern . The cap tally looks good in my opinion .
 
I agree with Darin and Joe. This is definitely not a Marine-HJ hat. Looks like a standard Kriegsmarine summer cap to me which would explain the hole you mentioned (for the KM eagle). The tally is Marine-HJ as already mentioned.

The Marine-HJ uniform was first standardised on 20.12.1934 (it would be 1938 before full standardisation was achieved) and the subsequent manufacturing instructions and regulations are clear. Now, whether this hat was worn at some point by a Marine-HJ member who lost/damaged/couldn't afford the regulation item is something we'll never know but as the guys have said, it is better to add regulation items to your collection.
 
It would be a shame to take tally off. I have minty Kriegsmarine tally and eagle with cockade. Size is about 55. I do, however see all sorts
of irregularities in MHJ uniforms in private photos. RZM caps are not of the highest quality and are sometimes easy to spot in photos. I would think a kid in a AHS
approaching eighteen would want a nice cap, but I agree there is no way to prove the provenance. I have a RZM pattern cap which I
will post in another thread.
 
Was this "High End Dealer in the UK" Ulrich of England? They are very expensive. I have seen a set of fake H.J. straps listed there for a considerable sum. Not saying this hat is bad, I can't say one way or the other on that.
 
It would be a nice cap with the correct tally and a mint eagle and cockade. Debating whether to send it back or not.
 
Maker is August Zeiger of Keil Danischestr. 24 since 1875. The pin is bogus obviously. The really unfortunate part about this is it is a very well made cap with flawless excellent doe-skin wool and nice interior. It's 54 btw and very HJ pattern on outside. It would be interesting to find if Zeiger had a RZM license. Don't think I could make it into a Kriegmarine . A child's parade cap?
 
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Well... I'm sending it back.. If dealer doesn't give the money back I'll tell you who it is as if everyone doesn't know already.
 
Gefolgschaft said:
It's Ulric of England for sure Garry. That odd wintermutze he shows is listed on the site currently at £475.00 !!!! Yikes!!! Talk about overpriced and non standard and odd.
Click to expand...

Thanks Darin. It never bodes well if a dealer is missing obvious stuff like a Hoffmann HJ membership badge.
 
Here's the infamous cap with tally!

Notice shiny black plastic in construction of cap under leather headband, not to mention a OTTO HOFFMAN HJ Pin!

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Good day,

I was made aware of this thread and don't want to owe you my opinion, although I cannot see the pictures in full size. However, I have read the previous posts and was able to make up my mind about it. First the maker: August Geiger in Kiel is a very well known maker of private purchase Kriegsmarine (but also children's) caps. If you are happy with the quality, why you don't keep it and replace the tally with a nice ship's KM cap tally? I can help you with that if you wish.
Your theory with the AHS-attending kid turning 18 drove a huge smile in my face - did you come up with this or the dealer? At the age of 18, a boy thinks of other things but fancy MHJ caps, which are not needed anymore in a few months when he joins the RAD. Plus, at the AHS the normal Fahrtenanzug was worn, so there wasn't really a need for a posh head dress. Also, at the AHS you didn't really want to stick out as special, but you understood yourselve as "one of the group", unless you had desire to become a General or Admiral one day. In general I have not seen personally ANY genuine MHJ stuff which relates to the furthest with AHS.
John Robinson does it exactly right in this fairly tricky subject of MHJ caps: stick with what you can prove. Consider: 20 years before the MHJ was founded, half of Germany's male youth (poor and rich!) wanted to be a sailor Imperial Navy. There were 10's of Thousands of caps like yours.

To the tally: I know of a private collector from the Frankfurt/M. area, who sold a 3/368 Lübben tally in about 2009/10. (I know it that precisely because I just came days too late to buy it off him.) However, I cannot read the Gefolgschafts-number on "your" Lübben cap - so it stays unresolved whether there's a possibility of being the very same tally.
Lübben is a fairly small town south of Berlin and although an area with lots of lakes and other waters I guess the MHJ groupings were fairly small. What I try to say: the Lübben tallies should not be encountered too often. Generally I rarely ever came across two tallies of the same unit in my 15 years I'm collecting MHJ tallies and photographs of these in wear.

To the eagle: nothing to worry about - there was a large number of MHJ units which did not comply with regulations! A white topped 2nd pattern cap should be fairly rare in any way: 2nd pattern tallies came in late 38, early 39 and as far as I remember the seasonal change of cap covers was suspended by RJF orders about 1940 - @ Gary: please help here - I'm not at home where I have my files.
It was common that unit's leaders allowed the wear of the eagle on the caps, despite being against regulation. It is a matter of fact that all these boys identified themselves with the "adult" sailors of the KM - this was the sole purpose of the MHJ! So why not to turn a blind eye to an eagle on a cap ...

Hope this was of any help. Most was said already.

Rgds

Daniel
 
Thank you for the input, Daniel. Fact remain the HJ pin is a OTTO HOFFMAN and the cap is made with shiny black plastic under the headband.
Some dealers always argue that if it is NOT RZM then it is private purchase which I understand to be a falsehood. The tally is marked Lubben 3/368!
 
Many thanks for your valued input Daniel. So, a KM or children's (not Marine-HJ) cap with a fake HJ badge and a cap tally that may well have been sold as a single in 2009/10 (Gefolgschaft 3/368 Lübben). With those things in mind, the possibility that this cap was assembled from the three constituent parts at some point cannot, of course, be overlooked. Clearly I'm not accusing Ulrich of England of doing the assembling but I would have hoped for more diligence on their part when they appraised the cap prior to adding it to their sales page with a "Marine-HJ" description. Same goes for the winter cap that they are currently listing.
 
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